[somewhatshocked]

Then we have fishless cycling with added ammonia or organic matter. Guessing this works best with an empty aquarium?

Most people plant their tanks first, flood, add their ammonia source. Concentrations of ammonia at 2-3PPM won't harm plants - even moss.

Then we still have cycling with nothing but soil in the tank. To me this seems like the best way to go, the leaking ammonia from the tank feeds the bacteria and you don't have to clean the substrate or do water changes during the cycle.

You should never have to clean your substrate in a planted tank. Nothing beyond gently siphoning detritus from the surface of the substrate, anyway. And you wouldn't want to disturb a dirt or clay-based substrate.

If you're using a product like ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia, water changes are almost always necessary during the initial cycling process because ammonia concentrations are high. Daily for a week and less frequently for the next 3 weeks, generally. It's a lot of water. (Though, I only really do water changes with ADA products if the ammonia concentration ends up being higher than 7-8PPM.)

Lastly, cycling with soil, hardy plants and floaters. This seems like a good way to go about my cycle as well, setting up the basic plants while floaters take up quite a lot of the ammonia.

I tend to add floating plants to my tanks after they're 'cycled' just so there's less chance for me to disturb them. But most like Frogbit should be able to handle some ammonia.

If you want to do as few water changes as possible while cycling, may be a good idea to go with an inert substrate like sand or fine gravel. Then use liquid ammonia (no surfactants) or a an ammonia/ammonium product from a company like Dr. Tim's or Fritz Aquatics to dose the tank to 2-3PPM. Keep it at 2-3PPM for several weeks until the tank can process all the ammonia in 24 hours or less. This is a good primer on the fishless cycle.

The only water change you'd need to do is a 100% change the day before or the day you add all of your livestock.

 

[Le duke]

FWIW, I have plants growing out in the tank that I add 3-4ppm of ammonia to every day. Several varieties of swords, some Val, etc. Bare bottom tank with an FX6, UV, CO2 reactor. Plants growing like crazy and the ammonia isn't bothering them at all.

 

[TheNewEra]

FWIW, I have plants growing out in the tank that I add 3-4ppm of ammonia to every day. Several varieties of swords, some Val, etc. Bare bottom tank with an FX6, UV, CO2 reactor. Plants growing like crazy and the ammonia isn't bothering them at all.

You managed to grow swords and Valisneria without a substrate at all? That is pretty impressive!

These plants I understand would not have any problems surviving, and even thriving, during the cycling phase. I love bucephalandra, monte carlo and blyxa. In my experience I always had those melt in my tanks during the cycling phase.. So which is not great seeing as bucephalandra and blyxa are fairly expensive here.

Most people plant their tanks first, flood, add their ammonia source. Concentrations of ammonia at 2-3PPM won't harm plants - even moss.



You should never have to clean your substrate in a planted tank. Nothing beyond gently siphoning detritus from the surface of the substrate, anyway. And you wouldn't want to disturb a dirt or clay-based substrate.

If you're using a product like ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia, water changes are almost always necessary during the initial cycling process because ammonia concentrations are high. Daily for a week and less frequently for the next 3 weeks, generally. It's a lot of water. (Though, I only really do water changes with ADA products if the ammonia concentration ends up being higher than 7-8PPM.)



I tend to add floating plants to my tanks after they're 'cycled' just so there's less chance for me to disturb them. But most like Frogbit should be able to handle some ammonia.

If you want to do as few water changes as possible while cycling, may be a good idea to go with an inert substrate like sand or fine gravel. Then use liquid ammonia (no surfactants) or a an ammonia/ammonium product from a company like Dr. Tim's or Fritz Aquatics to dose the tank to 2-3PPM. Keep it at 2-3PPM for several weeks until the tank can process all the ammonia in 24 hours or less. This is a good primer on the fishless cycle.

The only water change you'd need to do is a 100% change the day before or the day you add all of your livestock.

I didn't know you should still add ammonia if you start off with a full planted tank and rich soil. Why do we do this though? Is the ammonia leaking from the soil not already crazy high?

I should have been more specific on cleaning, siphoning the detritus from the soil is what I meant by cleaning. Though I sometimes tap the soil a bit during thorough cleaning to stir up any detritus that might have fallen into the soil.

Perhaps I wrongly classified floating plants as well, I meant just taking a lot of water Wisteria and Ludwigia and let them float around soaking up ammonia.

I use Mastersoil HG instead of Amazonia, I had great experience with before. It is also designed to not let too much ammonia leak into the water column and it doesn't break the bank. I used to do the ADA water change regime in my other tanks. 1st week every day, 2nd week every 2 days, 3rd week every 3 days, 4th week twice a week and then weekly. Only previous tanks of which the biggest one was 100L that was no problem, 2.5 water jugs and I was fine. Now I'd need 8 water jugs for every water change. The ADA regime would require 130 jugs on the first month. Which is fairly pricey as well.

Can I do the fishless cycle like on the thread you included but with the soil instead of inert sand/gravel?

 

[Le duke]

You managed to grow swords and Valisneria without a substrate at all? That is pretty impressive!

Per my stainless steel ruler, my 3x Echinodorus argentinensis have grown 2” in the last two weeks.

I’m dosing EI ferts every third day, daily ammonia, and a 0.8pH drop. UV filter is keeping the algae at bay.

 

[somewhatshocked]

I didn't know you should still add ammonia if you start off with a full planted tank and rich soil. Why do we do this though? Is the ammonia leaking from the soil not already crazy high?

Do you mean potting/garden soil or a clay/soil-based substrate specifically for planted tanks? Regardless, not everything on the market releases ammonia and that's why an ammonia source is necessary.

Can I do the fishless cycle like on the thread you included but with the soil instead of inert sand/gravel?

Yes. But like I mentioned above, if your substrate doesn't release ammonia, you'll have to add it.

 

[TheNewEra]

Do you mean potting/garden soil or a clay/soil-based substrate specifically for planted tanks? Regardless, not everything on the market releases ammonia and that's why an ammonia source is necessary.



Yes. But like I mentioned above, if your substrate doesn't release ammonia, you'll have to add it.

Mastersoil is a clay based aquasoil, it still releases ammonia into the water column just not as much as ADA soil does. I doubt the 4 bags of soil won't release enough ammonia but it might best to just test the water for a few days and ammonia myself should it no be enough.

Can I lessen the water change regime it I do it like above without plants?

 

[somewhatshocked]

I doubt the 4 bags of soil won't release enough ammonia but it might best to just test the water for a few days and ammonia myself should it no be enough.

Exactly.

Testing is the only way to be sure sure - even with ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia, as things can occasionally vary from batch-to-batch. So that will definitely work with the product you're planning to use.

Can I lessen the water change regime it I do it like above without plants?

Most plants can handle ammonia - even sensitive crypts and mosses - so they probably shouldn't play a big part in your decision.

The only way to know if you'll need to conduct water changes or add more ammonia is to test. If ammonia doesn't cause the water to have a concentration higher than 5-6PPM? I probably wouldn't do water changes - or at least not many.

If it can't keep ammonia levels consistently at, say, 2-3PPM until the tank is fully cycled? Then you'd want to add some ammonia at the end until the tank is ready. Then do one big, final water change before adding livestock and you should be good to go.

 

[plantnoobdude]

Perhaps unpopular, but this is my opinion on cycling heavily planted aquariums. Beautifully written and put together by Darrel on ukaps. (Be sure to read the links!)

Fishless cycle, nitrate drop, cabomba?

My 200L tank has been running for a bit over 3 week's. The cycle has been going in the right direction. It's processing ammonia, nitrites have spiked, nitrates going high (maybe 100ppm). About a week ago i did a large water change and put a large sword, 50 stems of cabomba, and some other small...

www.ukaps.org

Just add plenty of fast growing plants and stock one species at a time. I find it much more enjoyable that way😊

plants use nh4, no2, no3… let them take care of it for you. Let the tanks microbes establish themselves, if you have some already established media, even better. Take a step back and enjoy the tank. The first month or two often go by awfully quick!

 

[somewhatshocked]

Perhaps unpopular, but this is my opinion on cycling heavily planted aquariums. Beautifully written and put together by Darrel on ukaps. (Be sure to read the links!)

Fishless cycle, nitrate drop, cabomba?

My 200L tank has been running for a bit over 3 week's. The cycle has been going in the right direction. It's processing ammonia, nitrites have spiked, nitrates going high (maybe 100ppm). About a week ago i did a large water change and put a large sword, 50 stems of cabomba, and some other small...

www.ukaps.org

Just add plenty of fast growing plants and stock one species at a time. I find it much more enjoyable that way😊

plants use nh4, no2, no3… let them take care of it for you. Let the tanks microbes establish themselves, if you have some already established media, even better. Take a step back and enjoy the tank. The first month or two often go by awfully quick!

That method can definitely work with many fish that don't require well-established tanks. Especially if one does testing to monitor water quality. But it doesn't work for many beginners or those not willing to put in effort or research to fully understand what's involved. Doesn't usually work well with substrates that release absolutely tons of ammonia - like in this particular user's case.

For invertebrates like most dwarf shrimp species and micro crabs, however, it's never worth the risk involved if there's any chance of a potential ammonia or nitrite spike due to lack of nitrifying bacteria to keep up with waste. Accounting for that before livestock move in is a bonus when it comes to these critters. Having a well-established tank with tons of biolfilm and other tiny things to consume are also essential for something like shrimp.

 

[Le duke]

I think you would have a very, very bad experience running anything but VERY light stocking in a large tank doing something like that.

 

[plantnoobdude]

That method can definitely work with many fish that don't require well-established tanks. Especially if one does testing to monitor water quality. But it doesn't work for many beginners or those not willing to put in effort or research to fully understand what's involved. Doesn't usually work well with substrates that release absolutely tons of ammonia - like in this particular user's case

Agreed, all you have to do is let the tank mature a bit longer. For example, I’d never introduce otocinclus to a newly established tank.