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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so, i have another wild hair up my rear, and have decided that i want a new fish to challenge myself with. i already picked up a group of bumblebee gobies, but from what i understand, breeding them is pretty straightforward. the hardest part with them seems to be inducing spawning.

what i want to find is more fish like my E. gilbertis, fish that produce fry that are notoriously difficult to raise. anyone know of any such fish? i know there is plenty of saltwater fish that meet the bill, but i am already working on doing something that is currently considered impossible(i will be using unconventional methods).

basically, i just want a fish to try. i have developed a setup that has produced fantastic results in a few egg layers, but they arent exactly difficult types to raise. anyone know of any fresh water fish that are not too hard to spawn but produce fry that are difficult to raise?

im thinking of purchasing some panda loaches when i get my taxes, but i have no idea if they are difficult to breed or not. from what i have read, many people who have kept them have had them spawn, but have not produced fry yet.
 

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for me personally i have only have been able to raise 2 peacock gudgeons from fry after about 8 months. and then i mysteriously had Panchax killifish fry (i didn't have a male for the female to mate with) i have one survivor...but i think thats only because my stupid purple passion danios ate them all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
for me personally i have only have been able to raise 2 peacock gudgeons from fry after about 8 months. and then i mysteriously had Panchax killifish fry (i didn't have a male for the female to mate with) i have one survivor...but i think thats only because my stupid purple passion danios ate them all.
that sent me looking gudgeons up, and i think i have found one that meets my criteria. Empire Gudgeon, apparently easy to spawn but nearly impossible to raise the fry. i have experience with microscopic fish larvae and i think i would have a decent shot at raising them. its a challenge that is right up my alley.
 

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I'm glad i could help you with that. gudgeons are very pretty fish. the only challenge i have found in keeping mine is that when i am feeling lazy i still have to get good food to feed them, because they don't really eat dry or flake foods.

if you get some to survive can i call dibbs?
 

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That is a tough request, Once there are eggs, I don't think there is a species that no one has been able to raise. There are lots of species that no one has gotten to lay eggs. Look for species that are always wild caught, and many of the more recently imported species may not have successful spawning reports yet. for challenging fry care, look for species that produce tons of really small eggs and provide no parental care.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
empire gudgeons are difficult because their fry are too small to eat rotifers. the eggs are .3 mm wide and the fish hatch out only being one mm long. there can be up to three thousand eggs. people have raised the fry, but every report i have found has them being raised in outside ponds, not in an aquarium.
 

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Would probably look at the various tetras - very common one are neon tetras, relatively easy to spawn but apparently notoriously hard to raise (not that I have tried it). Most come out tiny and need very small food plus a narrow range of water parameters to make it.

Personally I'm a fan of the blackwater anabatoids, Sphaerichthys and Parosphromenus type fish, but the difficulty here is more spawning than raising IME.

Once there are eggs, I don't think there is a species that no one has been able to raise.
There are plenty, to start with, a large number of gobies including the genera Stiphodon, Sycopterus and Sicyopus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
im really looking for larval fish to test my setup with. thats actually the biggest reason i want fish that are easy to breed but produce tiny fry that are difficult to raise. most larval fry are difficult to raise because of the issues involved with feeding them and trying to maintain good water quality. they need a lot of food, and at the same time they need very clean water. its not always easy to do that in an aquarium.


that said, i think i have hit on a method that will work. i just need lots and lots of tiny fry to do it. as far as i know, empire gudgeons are a pretty easy fish to keep. the references i have found suggest they have been found in a wide range of water parameters. they also produce huge amounts of fry. im interested in gobies as well and already have some bumblebee gobies. ill see soon enough if i can breed them with my set up. from what i have read, they shouldnt be too hard. im just trying to ease my way into brackish fish.

basically, i found a way to produce microscopic foods smaller than most infusoria without compromising water quality. i think this may open up a new way to raise larval fish. it works great for Elassoma gilberti, which are shorter than microworms when they hatch.

from what i have read, getting empire gudgeons to spawn is easy. its the next step im after.
 

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empire gudgeons are difficult because their fry are too small to eat rotifers. the eggs are .3 mm wide and the fish hatch out only being one mm long. there can be up to three thousand eggs. people have raised the fry, but every report i have found has them being raised in outside ponds, not in an aquarium.
im really looking for larval fish to test my setup with. thats actually the biggest reason i want fish that are easy to breed but produce tiny fry that are difficult to raise. most larval fry are difficult to raise because of the issues involved with feeding them and trying to maintain good water quality. they need a lot of food, and at the same time they need very clean water. its not always easy to do that in an aquarium.


that said, i think i have hit on a method that will work. i just need lots and lots of tiny fry to do it. as far as i know, empire gudgeons are a pretty easy fish to keep. the references i have found suggest they have been found in a wide range of water parameters. they also produce huge amounts of fry. im interested in gobies as well and already have some bumblebee gobies. ill see soon enough if i can breed them with my set up. from what i have read, they shouldnt be too hard. im just trying to ease my way into brackish fish.

basically, i found a way to produce microscopic foods smaller than most infusoria without compromising water quality. i think this may open up a new way to raise larval fish. it works great for Elassoma gilberti, which are shorter than microworms when they hatch.

from what i have read, getting empire gudgeons to spawn is easy. its the next step im after.

i wonder how much floaters affect the feeding of fry? i recently found out that i have killifish fry. i have not feed food small enough to feed them but here they are growing happily healthy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
what do you mean by floater? infusoria?

in every tank there are microbes that go about their business, doing their thing without being seen. some tanks(usually planted) can have many more of these microbes than others, so there is food for fry, even if you dont see it.

i culture algae because of its uses in this respect. i have always done this. here is a video showing the microbes your fry might eat. the larger thing attached to the dead strand of algae is a rotifer, which is a common first food for small fry. in the video, it is barely moving. there is another small critter that is crawling around nearby, it is a ciliate. when they hatched, some of my gilberti fry were too small to eat rotifers of this size, but i saw them go after the ciliates. within a day or two after absorbing their yolks and becoming free swimming they were able to eat rotifers, and within another five days or so could eat much larger prey. i believe smaller larval fish will have to rely mostly on the tiny ciliates though.

http://s1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg522/sjveck/?action=view&current=1.mp4

this was shot at 100x magnification
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
hmm... i will, but only after a little more work. my methods would quickly be laughed at in most circles, be they well thought out or not. you cant argue with success though, so im pushing it even further than i have so far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
i should have specified, i mean floating plants such as frogbit salvinia etc. do they help to encourge the growth of microbes and such?
ah, i thought so. microbes do grow on them. they grow on everything, but really love fine structures like roots or algae.
 

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Auban, it is nice to see you so confident.

I have something that I believe will challenge you to the breaking point.

If you succeed, you'll make good money off it.

Not sure if you have invert experience, but take a look at Thai Micro Crabs.

The longest recorded fry life was nine days. They're free floating when born, similar to what you were describing.

They are all wild caught in the hobby, and the species would greatly benefit from being bred in captivity.

So if you have the skills you say you do, I hope you succeed and accomplish the goal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
im not really interested in breeding fish that have not been bred in captivity before, especially larger fish... dont have room. that and im trying to tackle one thing at a time.

MABJ, thanks for the tip. of all the things i have worked with, pelagic crustaceans and larvae are what i have the most experience with. that seems to be another challenge right up my alley. :)

there have been several species of crustaceans, especially planktonic types, that people have for years called impossible or near impossible to keep in captivity. in the end, when someone found out how to keep them, everybody usually says things like "its so simple, why didnt i think of that?".
fish often turn out to be the same way.

take clownfish for example. for the longest time, people argued over whether or not rotifers were a suitable food for the larval fry. it wasnt until someone came along and showed that larval fry fed rotifers that were raised on yeast always died while fry fed rotifers raised on nannochloropsis survived that the debate was settled. the answer to that incredibly challenging problem(at the time anyway) was simply to add HUFA to their diets.

i have a feeling that the solution to keeping and breeding most critters will be a just as simple. we just have to keep trying until we figure it out.
 
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Well that's an interesting bit of information.

I hope you do attempt them.. They're a very high interest on my list, and I intend on trying to get them to breed.

They're very neat little crustaceans.

Some people have correlated their breeding with having a high light source near the surface of the tank.

If you do attempt their breeding, keep us posted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
the more i read about thai micro crabs, the more i want to try my hand at them. from looking at pictures and videos, its obvious that they need a lot of suspended foods. i managed to find a video and some pictures that show the larvae as well. they look like they feed in a similar fashion to some of the more obscure chydorus species i have cultured. ill see if i can set a tank up for them. i believe that they would take up much less room to breed and care for than empire gudgeons(which i wont be able to get for at least a couple months). they also seem to be a lot easier to find.

im not really concerned about failed attempts. i usually fail the first time around with everything i try to culture. the first time go is always a learning experience. thats when i pull out the microscope and start watching everything, day old larvae to the moment they die. its usually when i find out what they actually eat and what actually kills them. after that is just a matter of applying what i have learned.
 
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