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can't get canister filter to prime and can't get any bubbles to show up in counter

20231 Views 18 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  jeffkrol, 
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Hey guys,

Since January I've been growing out an emersed carpet with a couple different plants. Today I finally flooded the tank and went to hook up my co2 and canister filter. I have an Eheim Pro 4 350 (this one: https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/node/6249) I cannot get it to prime. Basically I sucked on the output tube for an hour while the water slowly drained in (my mouth is killing me) It seems mostly filled but when I turn the filter on it makes noise for about 15 seconds and then it sounds like it's working but barely any flow comes out of the filter (and there is some air still in the lines) I put the outflow tube down below to try and make it easier but after an hour of trying I maybe got a gallon of water to get pumped out. I can't really even suck any more air out cause there is just water coming out of the outflow. I'm not sure what else could be going on. The output/input are on the right tubes and there are no plastic bags or anything in the filter. I do have a lot going on the lines, on the output there is an inline co2 diffuser and also an inline heater. The filter has 16mm tubing but then I go down to 12 mm tubing to go onto my lily tubes. Not sure if that is affecting it.

My other problem is I hooked up my co2 and all the pressures appear to be fine (800 and 35) but I cannot get any bubbles to show up in the bubble counter. I have a Green Leaf Aquarium regulator. I turn the knob under the bubble counter (counter clockwise) but nothing happens. That thing seems to turn forever, too. Also, I tried closing the valve on the co2 tank and none of the pressure changed. Is that normal?

I'm worried now that my plants are gonna die since they're not submerged and I don't have all the co2 working.

Any help is appreciated, thanks!
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D
Not really sure what that "Extender" button on your filter does. When you suck on the output tube of a filter, it should almost immediately begin a gushing siphon of water.

Disconnect your inlet tubing, remove it from the tank and see f you can back flow water through it (just put your sink faucet over it with the other end directed to a bucket. Then check your output the same way. Then figure out where your canister is not working right.

Post photos of all valve lineups please.


Regarding CO2 , if you have no flow (no bubbles in counter) no pressures will change regardless of shutoff valve position. The only thing that should change is the downstream pressure if you INcrease it at the regulator (by turning knob CLOCKwise). You cannot decrease down stream pressure in a system with no flow, that CO2 can't flow back into the higher pressure cylinder.

Relax - your plants won't die anytime soon and there is minor CO2 in the air. We will figure this out. I would work on the filter issue first.

What pressure are you running downstream of your regulator (0-40 gauge)?

Is your solenoid valve clicking when you plug it in or turn on the timer or switch? Is it getting warm?


The valve under the bubble counter is likely the needle valve which varies a pressure drop across a valve orifice to fine tune flow. You need to use the regulator to provide CO2, maybe around 20 PSI, to the needle valve.

If your solenoid isn't open, no flow, no bubbles.
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Watercrayfish
May be the canister is overloaded with media. Try running the filter after unloading all the media.


I believe you turned on the solenoid of your CO2 rigg. Happened to me initially. :)
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Doc7 said:
Not really sure what that "Extender" button on your filter does. When you suck on the output tube of a filter, it should almost immediately begin a gushing siphon of water.

Disconnect your inlet tubing, remove it from the tank and see f you can back flow water through it (just put your sink faucet over it with the other end directed to a bucket. Then check your output the same way. Then figure out where your canister is not working right.

Post photos of all valve lineups please.


Regarding CO2 , if you have no flow (no bubbles in counter) no pressures will change regardless of shutoff valve position. The only thing that should change is the downstream pressure if you INcrease it at the regulator (by turning knob CLOCKwise). You cannot decrease down stream pressure in a system with no flow, that CO2 can't flow back into the higher pressure cylinder.

Relax - your plants won't die anytime soon and there is minor CO2 in the air. We will figure this out. I would work on the filter issue first.
Click to expand...
So I'm a moron and had the intake and outtake hoses in the wrong places. I have fixed that but it still won't prime, basically the same issue except the motor doesn't sound super loud. But have I messed up the impeller or whatever now? It maybe only ran for 2 or 3 minutes total in the wrong configuration.

There are no kinks in the tubing, I just can't seem to suck all the air out for some reason. Do I need to empty the filter of water and try again? As soon as I start sucking I get water in my mouth coming from the filter. Water starts flowing from the intake but it never like completely fills the tube. When I stop sucking it stops.

Here are photos:


The left is the outflow which goes through my inline diffuser and then into my inline heater and then into a 16mm to 12mm reducer and then out the side of the stand into that bucket right there.
The right is the inflow which comes from a lily pipe inflow in the tank into 12mm tube and then a reducer (increaser?) to 16mm tube and then into the filter.

When I was taking the pictures I pushed on that piece and it kinda went crooked. I took everything out and I think put it back in correctly. I think that is a check valve of some sort?

My stand so you can see the height.

My regulator. Note the solenoid LED is on so it is plugged in.

Bump:
Doc7 said:
What pressure are you running downstream of your regulator (0-40 gauge)?

Is your solenoid valve clicking when you plug it in or turn on the timer or switch? Is it getting warm?


The valve under the bubble counter is likely the needle valve which varies a pressure drop across a valve orifice to fine tune flow. You need to use the regulator to provide CO2, maybe around 20 PSI, to the needle valve.

If your solenoid isn't open, no flow, no bubbles.
Click to expand...

I had it set to around 35. The solenoid does click (it almost shakes) and it definitely gets warm after a while. It's on. Just turning the needle valve counter clockwise does nothing. It is very hard to turn too.
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clownplanted
How long are the in/out hoses? Could be too long for what it can do. Looked it up and looks like 69" is max size hose for total length. Seems like you have a lot of extra tubing especially having to go from filter to diffuser then to heater. Especially could be a problem since reducing hose size to accommodate diffuser and heater. Im willing to bet thats your issue. Especially the long length going that high up from filter to tank.



I had a similar issue with my fluval 206 I am using dedicated for my co2. I had the hose a bit longer than was accepted and could not get it to work. After shortening it fixed the issue. I would check and shorten the total length of your hoses.
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PlantedRich
Okay, one way to make it easier to solve is to work on only one problem at a times and these are two different items.
One biggie to understand is that there is not likely to be anything broken so ease up on the worry!!
second big point is that the motor is not really needed except to give the water a tiny boost over the tank edge. Most of the work is done as a siphon, so getting the siphon to work is 90% of that question. The last 10% is that the motor does not pump air so will not work when there is air around it. Quiet likely for right now.
I would go this way:
1. take the tubing and block out and pull the little red item up and out if this has been out at any time. Check this posting for why? http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1142514-solution-ehiem-2071-2075-priming-question.html
This may/may not be the problem but easy to check and be sure it is correct.
2. With the intake/output tubing block off, hold the end above tank water line to keep water from running out into your face, open the lever and force air in the tubing that feeds water back to the tank (filter out?) to clear any water in that line and equipment. What we want is an empty output and a full input line to the canister.
Don't worry about the canister itself at this point but make sure the output line is clear and empty. You may need to tilt anything like a reactor, inline heater or such on the output to clear the water.
3. Once this is clear, reconnect the tubing block, make sure it clicks in good and then fully open the lever. Do this after making sure the tank water is near normal and covering the tube from the tank to the canister. Opening this lever with the output open also, should let the water standing in the intake line, siphon down, fill the canister fully and then go on up the output line until it reaches level with the tank water. During this time you should get all kinds of air gushing/gurgling out the output if it is in water. Lots of gunk too if the tubes are grimy!
If you have done this, give the prime button a couple slow pushes and you may get a couple more gulps of air.
4. Motor should now be fully in water so it can work and the lines are open so plug it in and watch it work? Small noise is possible for a few seconds but quiet almost immediately when no air is left.

Tackle CO2 as chapter two!
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clownplanted
Also for your co2 your solenoid could be stuck in the off position. Simply take off the bottom part and see if you see it move open and close when plugging in and unplugging. I had this happen on my co2 regulator solenoid it would click and all when off/on but was oposite was stuck in the on position. Took off the bottom part and sure enough the piece was stuck. Simply blowing air on it fixed the issue. Sounds like yours is stuck in the off position.

Bump:
PlantedRich said:
Okay, one way to make it easier to solve is to work on only one problem at a times and these are two different items.
One biggie to understand is that there is not likely to be anything broken so ease up on the worry!!
second big point is that the motor is not really needed except to give the water a tiny boost over the tank edge. Most of the work is done as a siphon, so getting the siphon to work is 90% of that question. The last 10% is that the motor does not pump air so will not work when there is air around it. Quiet likely for right now.
I would go this way:
1. take the tubing and block out and pull the little red item up and out if this has been out at any time. Check this posting for why? http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1142514-solution-ehiem-2071-2075-priming-question.html
This may/may not be the problem but easy to check and be sure it is correct.
2. With the intake/output tubing block off, hold the end above tank water line to keep water from running out into your face, open the lever and force air in the tubing that feeds water back to the tank (filter out?) to clear any water in that line and equipment. What we want is an empty output and a full input line to the canister.
Don't worry about the canister itself at this point but make sure the output line is clear and empty. You may need to tilt anything like a reactor, inline heater or such on the output to clear the water.
3. Once this is clear, reconnect the tubing block, make sure it clicks in good and then fully open the lever. Do this after making sure the tank water is near normal and covering the tube from the tank to the canister. Opening this lever with the output open also, should let the water standing in the intake line, siphon down, fill the canister fully and then go on up the output line until it reaches level with the tank water. During this time you should get all kinds of air gushing/gurgling out the output if it is in water. Lots of gunk too if the tubes are grimy!
If you have done this, give the prime button a couple slow pushes and you may get a couple more gulps of air.
4. Motor should now be fully in water so it can work and the lines are open so plug it in and watch it work? Small noise is possible for a few seconds but quiet almost immediately when no air is left.

Tackle CO2 as chapter two!
Click to expand...
Even before checking all of that would you not recommend checking the length of the hoses? Just seems way to long especially how high up the tank is from filter. You get to a point where the pressure just is not enough the more hose you have to worry about. Especially going through the diffuser and heater. Just seems like WAY to much hose and in my mind and experience was the cause of the issue.
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clownplanted
Any update on this? Did you get it sorted out?


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M
you said the water is SLOWLY running out of the intake side? That would indicate a restriction somewhere.The water should be gushing out of that hose once a siphon is established.

I always fill the canister before hooking it up,to make priming easier.

Another thing to check would be the red check valve.As you are facing the canister,it should be on the left(outflow Side).I would also suggest getting a box of small automotive hose clamps for the tubes,and using those instead of the cheesy plastic things all canisters seem to come with.

I would try to get the canister pumping before adding in the additional plumbing,so as to eliminate any other places that might restrict or stop the flow.

Also,the "extender" knob causes the filter to bypass the media,in case it becomes clogged.Bypass is the side marked +,normal is marked -.that's something else that isn't very clear int he pictorial diagram.

If you want to see if the impeller is spinning,you can plug in the head with it flipped upside down,like at the sink,and there's a small cover that comes off with half a turn.

BTW,I run a pro 4+ 250 on my 45,and pro 4+ 350 on my 55,and I clean them both with my weekly water change.

I would see if I could plumb around the diffuser to see if the filter works,maybe the diffuser is switched around? I have no experience with one.
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PlantedRich
When dealing with the priming question on my filter, it was a slow flow. But my thinking on that is there was some water around the impeller and it did do some pumping but not a full flow. I found the reason for the less than good prime was the water trapped in the output line. We have had a forum discussion way back and I have been told that it doesn't work that way. But that was folks using theory and I was using the filter!
When I have something that holds water like a reactor, it will not prime right until do some special moves. I can see the water is in the incoming line to the canister and it does fill the canister to some extent. But when I look at my tubing going out to the tank, there is a large gap of air rather than the water forcing the air out and up to the tank.
This is one setup that I have pictures on hand.


The tubing comes almost straight down to the 2217 on the right, out to the left and into the top of the reactor, and then the output from the reactor goes up to the tank. When I restart as normal, the water coming down will fill the 22217 canister part way. As it does it forces the air in the canister up and out as far as it can. I can see it puts some water into the tubing but there is a lot of air which will not pass the water which is trapped in the reactor. My spin, which I am told is wrong, is that the small amount of water in the tube coming in is not enough to force the large amount of water out of the reactor to let the air get past. That leaves the top of the canister having air where the pump sets.
I solve the problem by tipping the bottom of the canister up so that the air has a straight course to go up and out. Once this air is drained, the pump is then in water and can move water.
It is my theory that it is much like pushing a glass down under water. There is water to the right as it comes in and water standing on the left in the reactor and the air will not go down through the water to escape until I give it an upward path.
That is the purpose of the orange plastic strap at the reactor top. It lets me swing the reactor up.
The other filter? It just sets and blocks the view!
We've not heard back from the OP but I think he has water standing like a cork in a bottle?
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clownplanted
PlantedRich said:
When dealing with the priming question on my filter, it was a slow flow. But my thinking on that is there was some water around the impeller and it did do some pumping but not a full flow. I found the reason for the less than good prime was the water trapped in the output line. We have had a forum discussion way back and I have been told that it doesn't work that way. But that was folks using theory and I was using the filter!

When I have something that holds water like a reactor, it will not prime right until do some special moves. I can see the water is in the incoming line to the canister and it does fill the canister to some extent. But when I look at my tubing going out to the tank, there is a large gap of air rather than the water forcing the air out and up to the tank.

This is one setup that I have pictures on hand.





The tubing comes almost straight down to the 2217 on the right, out to the left and into the top of the reactor, and then the output from the reactor goes up to the tank. When I restart as normal, the water coming down will fill the 22217 canister part way. As it does it forces the air in the canister up and out as far as it can. I can see it puts some water into the tubing but there is a lot of air which will not pass the water which is trapped in the reactor. My spin, which I am told is wrong, is that the small amount of water in the tube coming in is not enough to force the large amount of water out of the reactor to let the air get past. That leaves the top of the canister having air where the pump sets.

I solve the problem by tipping the bottom of the canister up so that the air has a straight course to go up and out. Once this air is drained, the pump is then in water and can move water.

It is my theory that it is much like pushing a glass down under water. There is water to the right as it comes in and water standing on the left in the reactor and the air will not go down through the water to escape until I give it an upward path.

That is the purpose of the orange plastic strap at the reactor top. It lets me swing the reactor up.

The other filter? It just sets and blocks the view!

We've not heard back from the OP but I think he has water standing like a cork in a bottle?
Click to expand...


Totally agree. And what I feel is he has way too much air and pressure especially from the length and height of the hoses which the water has a long way to go before outing in the tank.

I know exactly what you are saying with the priming and agree. For example my small Fluval 206 has a hard time especially going through the reactor and through the inline heater before going through the out in the tank. What I noticed is there is air space left in the reactor and it is not able to get it out and therefore cannot get the full siphon. What works is by tipping upside down the reactor getting out all of the airspace it works almost immediately and it starts flowing.


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PlantedRich
I don't see it as too much water on the output as it works once we get the air out and the pump is fully in water. The water in the output traps the air that would normally go up and out. I don't think it is an Eheim problem but a problem we create when we add something like an inline heater or reactor that holds water. For the best priming, where I don't have something to add inline, I find the best way to set up is just as short and straight tubing both in and out. At times. I have not wanted to cut the tubing short because the filter was on a tank for a temporary thing. In those cases when I leave a big droop in the line, the water trapped there does much the same. I can get part of the air out of the canister but not all and that air will always be stuck at the top, wither in the canister where the pump is or further at the top of the tubing before is droops down.
Water low, air high, always likes to be that way.
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Hey sorry for the lack of updates. Thank you everyone for the advice. I got really busy last week and I also was dreading dealing with this. It kinda killed my enthusiasm cause I was worried something was going to be wrong with the filter and/or co2 regulator and I would have to send either of them back meanwhile my plants would be dying.

Anyhow the good news is I fixed both issues and pretty much have everything up and running. For the filter I believe it was that I had water still in the pipes somewhere after fixing the input/output hoses. I emptied the entire filter of water, double checked that the baskets were placed right, and then started the suction again with my mouth on the outflow. This time the water started the suction rather quickly and after about 15 seconds it had filled the filter and was coming out the outflow into a bucket I had. I moved that up into the tank and then closed off the valve on the filter, reattached my lily pipe and everything was perfect. I was not stoked about having to take all my tubing work apart if it was indeed something to do with stepping down to 12mm tubing or the length of everything but I'm glad that wasn't the issue and none of that was necessary.

I didn't check any of my water parameters during last week while the water was basically just idle in there. I did check today after the filter has been running since saturday. Ammonia and Nitrites are at 0 but Nitrates were through the roof, like 125 I'm guessing. Dark dark red. Is this normal for ADA Amazonia? Ph is 6.4 and KH is 3, GH is 8. Tomorrow I'll do a 50% water change and then maybe add some ammonia to see if the 2 months of dry start got the cycle going. If so I'll add some fish this weekend. I have another tank but I don't want to add anything from that into this tank as that tank is basically overrun with small planaria and stuff that I'm assuming came from plants I ordered. All the plants in this tank are tissue culture so I don't want to mix anything between the two.

For the co2 I sent a picture of it to GLA and they responded to me today that the tiny little screw on the needle valve probably needed to be tightened. This required a very tiny allen wrench which luckily I had. Once I tightened that I was able to open the needle valve and now have the co2 working. At first I was pretty bummed cause it caused a lot of micro bubbles to show up in the tank but that has since worked itself out and everything looks pretty good. I took some pictures:






My stand is 2 ikea besta stands on top of each other and I drilled holes in the side for the filter.





My only issue now is some of my utricularia graminifolia is dying off. This was happening during the dry start and I was hoping flooding the tank would stop it but I'm not sure if it is. Can anyone tell me is this algae or mold or what is going on here:
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D
It is a brave move to stack two IKEA stands on top of one another to hold a fish tank. I wouldn't have done it but not being familiar with your exact set up I won't say that it won't work.

I am glad your problems are worked out!! That screw is probably what engages the hand wheel (the part you turn) to the valve stem, which is why you were able to turn it forever previously. Great information.
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clownplanted
Very glad you got the water and co2 issues world out. The good sign is your nitrite and ammonia are good. Just a couple few large wc and your nitrates should also be good. Thanks for the good update.

As long as your ammonia and nitrites is a stable zero then you should be cycled.

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PlantedRich
Nice to see the progress. I might add that there may/may not be some concern when you do a water change and need to restart the filter. If it is the water stopping the flow, it may reoccur on draining the water down. I have this problem if I don't remember to kick the filter off as I drain the water and then also to tip the rector up to let the air bleed out before restarting the filter.
Maybe something to just file away in the head, just in case it comes up again? I find restarts /priming is simple---as long as I remember the problems my added reactor creates. Some have trouble, some don't.
Sometimes it's not what I know but what I remember I know that gives me problems!
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Doc7 said:
It is a brave move to stack two IKEA stands on top of one another to hold a fish tank. I wouldn't have done it but not being familiar with your exact set up I won't say that it won't work.

I am glad your problems are worked out!! That screw is probably what engages the hand wheel (the part you turn) to the valve stem, which is why you were able to turn it forever previously. Great information.
Click to expand...
Haha yeah, I had to be brave especially after I drilled the holes for the tubes and discovered the stand is probably 60% cardboard. Here's the cross section of the cut:


However, the tank with all the water and substrate is about 200lbs. When I built it I stood on it and kinda jumped a little (I weigh 155) and it seemed solid. The weight is distributed equally so it should be fine. I've seen a bunch of other people use these stands for 60p tanks, although to be fair not stacked but that shouldn't matter at all, the two are glued together so they aren't sliding apart. I also have a piece of tempered glass on the very top which keeps any water off the "wood" from weakening it and I have some plastic mat in the bottom where the filter and everything is as well.
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PlantedRich said:
Nice to see the progress. I might add that there may/may not be some concern when you do a water change and need to restart the filter. If it is the water stopping the flow, it may reoccur on draining the water down. I have this problem if I don't remember to kick the filter off as I drain the water and then also to tip the rector up to let the air bleed out before restarting the filter.
Maybe something to just file away in the head, just in case it comes up again? I find restarts /priming is simple---as long as I remember the problems my added reactor creates. Some have trouble, some don't.
Sometimes it's not what I know but what I remember I know that gives me problems!
Click to expand...
Yeah definitely. I had to bring the end of the output tube below the filter to get it to work initially. It didn't quite have enough force to push everything back up into the tank at the start but once I lowered it and it started flowing well I moved it back up with no problem. The flow is really good now into the tank and the lily pipe even shakes a little bit. Since I'm reducing I'm sure that causes more pressure. I'm glad I went with the smaller lily pipes though as anything bigger wouldn't have looked good (also those are the ADA ones so they were expensive as hell as is, the 16mm would have been even worse!)

This is my first co2 tank and also the first time I've used a canister filter so I had a lot to learn though I definitely researched for months before purchasing anything and I felt like I had a good handle on everything. Just goes to show how valuable experience is.

That filter is overkill for a 20 gallon tank though so hopefully I won't have to clean it very often. My plan is to put a dozen lambchop rasboras in there with a few otos and some shrimp.
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jeffkrol
So I'm a moron and had the intake and outtake hoses in the wrong places.
Click to expand...
been there.. done that.. .. ;)
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