[DaveKS]

Big bag of crushed coral in filter?

Obviously soil is probably sucking it up. Also what did you use to build high areas, know you mentioned power sand at one time but thought it was already a mineralized substrate.

Could all that lava rock be sucking up minerals?

 

[Ddrizzle]

No idea what it is but my guess was aquasoil sucking it up or maybe something to do with the lava rock.

Because I had seiryu stone from the get-go with the aquasoil last time I don't have a basis to go off of.

Actually my wife just said she had issues keeping her gh up for a few months and she has aquasoil without seiyru stone. Maybe it is the aquasoil sucking it up.

As for building it up, I didnt get much higher than 5 or so inches. In those areas I stacked up more power sand. I ran out and finished the hills off with some leftover eco complete. This left about two inches of aquasoil on top.

Also, so what are people using to dose calcium and magnesium specifically, outside of generic gh boosters?

 

[Maryland Guppy]

Also, so what are people using to dose calcium and magnesium specifically, outside of generic gh boosters?

Magnesium Sulfate ( MgSO4)
Potassium Sulfate ( K2so4)
Calcium Sulfate (CaSO4)

or you just buy NilocG GH booster.

 

[Ddrizzle]

Magnesium Sulfate ( MgSO4)
Potassium Sulfate ( K2so4)
Calcium Sulfate (CaSO4)

or you just buy NilocG GH booster.

Question - Why would people use potassium sulfate? I thought GH was just CA/Mg. Guess I have some reading to do.

 

[Edward]

Am I missing anything else here? I doubt it but am open to ideas.

The most and best aquariums are for example in Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore. They use mostly ADA substrates and have very soft tap water. Below are their tap water parameters:

Tokyo
Alkalinity 13 – 61 mg / L, 0.7 – 3.4 dKH
Total hardness 47 – 83 mg / L
Ca hardness 41 – 60 mg / L, 16 – 24 ppm Ca, 2.2 – 3.4 dGH
Mg hardness 6 – 23 mg / L, 1 – 5 ppm Mg, 0.2 – 1.1 dGH

Hong Kong
Alkalinity 7 - 78 mg / L, 0.4 – 4.4 dKH
Total hardness 4 – 64 mg / L
Ca hardness 2 – 53 mg / L, 0.9 – 21 ppm Ca, 0.1 – 2.9 dGH
Mg hardness 2 – 11 mg / L , 0.4 – 2.8 ppm Mg, 0.1 – 0.6 dGH

Singapore
Alkalinity 6 – 40 mg / L, 0.3 – 2.2 dKH
Total hardness 27 – 221 mg / L

Also, they most likely follow the ADA water change instructions which I think is 30% weekly after initial break-in period due to leaching NH4. And I don’t believe they do much testing of GH, KH, Ca or Mg. They only watch for NH4, NO3 and PO4 to see if there is needed an extra water change.

Below is data I have collected from few ADA magazines where we can see actual aquarium water parameters. The data is from 31 Takashi Amano’s aquariums:

TH Total hardness:
8 with 50 ppm, 2.8 dGH
1 with 30 ppm, 1.7 dGH
18 with 20 ppm, 1.1 dGH
4 with 10 ppm, 0.56 dGH

pH:
7 with 6.6
1 with 6.4
3 with 6.0

“What constantly fascinates us is the water quality of natural springs. When our field research unit conducted a comparative water quality testing three of the world’s largest rainforest, where majority of the aquatic plants and tropical fishes originated, we discover the water to be rather acidic and extremely poor in dissolved salts. The pH values for the constant varies between pH 5 to 6, with TH averaged below 20mg/litre.” (ADA Aqua Journal, Vol.36, pg.28), 20 mg / litre = 1.1 dGH

“When CO2 is injected into the water, its pH will be lowered approximately to the range of 6.6 – 6.8. If your aquarium is a newly setup tank using Aqua Soil as the base substrate, the pH will decline further to 5.0 – 5.5 or even lower. There is no cause for alarm as this is only temporary.
After a period of time (about a month’s time), when the substrate is leached by regular water change, the pH will gradually rise back up 6.6 and remains constant thereafter. “ (ADA Aqua Journal, Vol. 38, pg.29)

Notice that there is no mentioning of any KH values. ADA doesn’t even have a KH test kit. The KH and pH buffering is controlled by the substrate. When minerals are adsorbed by the substrate they are not locked up, they are going to be released when needed.

 

[varanidguy]

The most and best aquariums are for example in Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore. They use mostly ADA substrates and have very soft tap water. Below are their tap water parameters:



Tokyo

Alkalinity 13 – 61 mg / L, 0.7 – 3.4 dKH

Total hardness 47 – 83 mg / L

Ca hardness 41 – 60 mg / L, 16 – 24 ppm Ca, 2.2 – 3.4 dGH

Mg hardness 6 – 23 mg / L, 1 – 5 ppm Mg, 0.2 – 1.1 dGH



Hong Kong

Alkalinity 7 - 78 mg / L, 0.4 – 4.4 dKH

Total hardness 4 – 64 mg / L

Ca hardness 2 – 53 mg / L, 0.9 – 21 ppm Ca, 0.1 – 2.9 dGH

Mg hardness 2 – 11 mg / L , 0.4 – 2.8 ppm Mg, 0.1 – 0.6 dGH



Singapore

Alkalinity 6 – 40 mg / L, 0.3 – 2.2 dKH

Total hardness 27 – 221 mg / L



Also, they most likely follow the ADA water change instructions which I think is 30% weekly after initial break-in period due to leaching NH4. And I don’t believe they do much testing of GH, KH, Ca or Mg. They only watch for NH4, NO3 and PO4 to see if there is needed an extra water change.



Below is data I have collected from few ADA magazines where we can see actual aquarium water parameters. The data is from 31 Takashi Amano’s aquariums:



TH Total hardness:

8 with 50 ppm, 2.8 dGH

1 with 30 ppm, 1.7 dGH

18 with 20 ppm, 1.1 dGH

4 with 10 ppm, 0.56 dGH



pH:

7 with 6.6

1 with 6.4

3 with 6.0



“What constantly fascinates us is the water quality of natural springs. When our field research unit conducted a comparative water quality testing three of the world’s largest rainforest, where majority of the aquatic plants and tropical fishes originated, we discover the water to be rather acidic and extremely poor in dissolved salts. The pH values for the constant varies between pH 5 to 6, with TH averaged below 20mg/litre.” (ADA Aqua Journal, Vol.36, pg.28), 20 mg / litre = 1.1 dGH



“When CO2 is injected into the water, its pH will be lowered approximately to the range of 6.6 – 6.8. If your aquarium is a newly setup tank using Aqua Soil as the base substrate, the pH will decline further to 5.0 – 5.5 or even lower. There is no cause for alarm as this is only temporary.

After a period of time (about a month’s time), when the substrate is leached by regular water change, the pH will gradually rise back up 6.6 and remains constant thereafter. “ (ADA Aqua Journal, Vol. 38, pg.29)



Notice that there is no mentioning of any KH values. ADA doesn’t even have a KH test kit. The KH and pH buffering is controlled by the substrate. When minerals are adsorbed by the substrate they are not locked up, they are going to be released when needed.

Very interesting indeed. My tap is close to Tokyo’s in terms of hardness (about 4 dKH and 5 dGH), however I was to believe that any KH in the tap would render the soil useless in a short period, and the KH fluctuations from doing water changes would be potentially detrimental to livestock, even lethal to more sensitive types like shrimp. What is your take on that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ddrizzle]

Just FYI I'm talking GH issues not KH. I do have to work extra hard to keep my Ph around 7.0-7.2 by putting in potassium bicarbonate every other day or so. I have a Ph pen so this isn't super hard. When it drops to 6.8 or 6.9 I put more potassium bicarbonate in.

New finding for GH - I dumped an extra amount in to get it up to 2-3 GH last night. It has stayed around 2 gh for now. Suddenly the water is not yellow anymore from the "humic acid" (as stated on ADA's page).

Conclusion - Aquasoil will suck up GH and reduce it to zero. Yellow water is a clear sign of this. Zero GH will also likely cause shrimp to day within a few days of putting them in the tank. My wife says her GH eventually stopped dropping a couple of months in with her tank which had aquasoil. Her tank was also yellow at first and we didn't know why.

 

[varanidguy]

Just FYI I'm talking GH issues not KH. I do have to work extra hard to keep my Ph around 7.0-7.2 by putting in potassium bicarbonate every other day or so. I have a Ph pen so this isn't super hard. When it drops to 6.8 or 6.9 I put more potassium bicarbonate in.



New finding for GH - I dumped an extra amount in to get it up to 2-3 GH last night. It has stayed around 2 gh for now. Suddenly the water is not yellow anymore from the "humic acid" (as stated on ADA's page).



Conclusion - Aquasoil will suck up GH and reduce it to zero. Yellow water is a clear sign of this. Zero GH will also likely cause shrimp to day within a few days of putting them in the tank. My wife says her GH eventually stopped dropping a couple of months in with her tank which had aquasoil. Her tank was also yellow at first and we didn't know why.

My apologies. Yeah the aquasoil has a high CEC so it’s gonna suck up a bunch of stuff from the water. People do like it for the buffering though (reduction in bicarbonate), you may fight it for a while if you don’t want it to bring that value down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ddrizzle]

My apologies. Yeah the aquasoil has a high CEC so it’s gonna suck up a bunch of stuff from the water. People do like it for the buffering though (reduction in bicarbonate), you may fight it for a while if you don’t want it to bring that value down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm learning more about active substrate with every tank... this time it was GH heh. The marker for no GH with aquasoil is striking though - yellow tinted water. Hopefully this helps other people. No wonder I never saw yellow water in my first tank with seiryu stone... those little beasts leeched GH like nobody's business.

 

[Edward]

varanidguy
The substrate is soil and peat based so it will be reducing Ca, Mg, K and other cations and also reducing alkalinity making water more acidic. However it can do so only until exhausted and that is when the substrate becomes useless according to ADA or just ordinary mud.

TH Evaluation (Total Hardness CaCO3)
< 50 ppm (2.8 dGH)
Acceptable limits (Favorable water conditions for most aquatic plants.)

50 - 100 ppm (2.8 – 5.6 dGH)
Hardness is mildly high. Terminal buds of stemmed plants such as Hemianthus Micranthemoides and Glossostigma will turn white, leaves will grow smaller and the growth of plants will be disrupted.

>100 ppm (5.6 dGH)
Hardness is abnormally high.

As you can see above, ADA considers GH lower than 2.8 degrees favorable, it is less than 20 ppm Ca. Anything higher can cause problems.

I don’t know about some sensitive types of shrimps, but 30% water changes shouldn’t bother fish and usual shrimps, I am sure people in Japan have shrimps with ADA substrate. Maybe I would be monitoring TDS before and after water change to see how large the difference is.

Ddrizzle
How do you test zero Ca with a test kit?

Just FYI I'm talking GH issues not KH. I do have to work extra hard to keep my Ph around 7.0-7.2 by putting in potassium bicarbonate every other day or so. I have a Ph pen so this isn't super hard. When it drops to 6.8 or 6.9 I put more potassium bicarbonate in.

You are talking about KH because pH is dependent on KH. And why are you chasing so high pH? Did you test TDS difference before you put the shrimps in?

Zero GH will also likely cause shrimp to day within a few days of putting them in the tank.

Most likely the TDS fluctuations provided by your corrective actions.

 

[Ddrizzle]

varanidguy
The substrate is soil and peat based so it will be reducing Ca, Mg, K and other cations and also reducing alkalinity making water more acidic. However it can do so only until exhausted and that is when the substrate becomes useless according to ADA or just ordinary mud.



As you can see above, ADA considers GH lower than 2.8 degrees favorable, it is less than 20 ppm Ca. Anything higher can cause problems.

I don’t know about some sensitive types of shrimps, but 30% water changes shouldn’t bother fish and usual shrimps, I am sure people in Japan have shrimps with ADA substrate. Maybe I would be monitoring TDS before and after water change to see how large the difference is.

Ddrizzle
How do you test zero Ca with a test kit?

You are talking about KH because pH is dependent on KH. And why are you chasing so high pH? Did you test TDS difference before you put the shrimps in? Most likely the TDS fluctuations provided by your corrective actions.

High ph - I suppose a 7.0 ph is irrelevant. I thought if I went from 7.0~ down to 6.0~ that the fish wouldn't stress as much as 6.0 down to 5.0. I think these are irrelevant thought. At 6.0~ ph due to co2, my gouramis are breathing from the surface every once in a while (it's a feature of their species).



Shrimps - The only thing I didn't test before swapping was TDS. I tested GH and KH though which I thought would be enough. Looking back, my GH was actually probably zero or getting there sooner than I realize.


Calcium -

• Calculating Calcium with API test kit: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1264234-testing-calcium.html
• Calculating Mg once you know calcium: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...289707-how-calcuate-mg-if-you-know-ca-gh.html

 

[Asteroid]

I forget, what the story with your tap water that you have to use RO? Also I've never had GH issues with AS and my tap is KH=2 GH=4.

 

[Edward]

Ddrizzle
If you are planning to use a pH / KH / CO2 controller to have 1 pH drop then I have bad news, it doesn’t work with ADA substrates. The reason is these are not CO2 controllers, but pH controllers. And since ADA substrates are playing with KH then pH is all over the place. What you need is either a gas flow meter or set bubble count to fit your setup. If this is for the 22 gallon aquarium then the bubble counter is the only option. ADA is also using bubble counters and never controllers.

You trying to increase pH by adding KH before adding CO2 is too early because we don’t know how the substrate will buffer the pH. The substrate will not only push pH down but also up. It is not acidifier, it is a buffer.

For the Ca kit, if you use
20 ml then you can see Ca less than 05 ppm, 0.7 dGH
10 ml then you can see Ca less than 10 ppm, 1.4 dGH
05 ml then you can see Ca less than 20 ppm, 2.8 dGH

Not zero.

 

[Ddrizzle]

I forget, what the story with your tap water that you have to use RO? Also I've never had GH issues with AS and my tap is KH=2 GH=4.

There's no issues, I just have a shop down the road and like to use RO. I did start with tap a while ago and got a lot of brown algae which I assume was from high silicates.

Ddrizzle
If you are planning to use a pH / KH / CO2 controller to have 1 pH drop then I have bad news, it doesn’t work with ADA substrates. The reason is these are not CO2 controllers, but pH controllers. And since ADA substrates are playing with KH then pH is all over the place. What you need is either a gas flow meter or set bubble count to fit your setup. If this is for the 22 gallon aquarium then the bubble counter is the only option. ADA is also using bubble counters and never controllers.

You trying to increase pH by adding KH before adding CO2 is too early because we don’t know how the substrate will buffer the pH. The substrate will not only push pH down but also up. It is not acidifier, it is a buffer.

For the Ca kit, if you use
20 ml then you can see Ca less than 05 ppm, 0.7 dGH
10 ml then you can see Ca less than 10 ppm, 1.4 dGH
05 ml then you can see Ca less than 20 ppm, 2.8 dGH

Not zero.

Thanks for the concern here. I understand the relationship between ph, kh and the constant softening. I check my ph every morning to see how much it drops and add the necessary kh back. Currently, it typically sucks out enough kh for a 0.1 drop in ph. To your point, I am using a bubble counter. I dont use the ph pen for controlling anything.

If it was more, like 0.3 ph difference or higher I'd be more concerned. So far so good. Also I forgot to mention I add kh to keep it around 3 or so.

As for ca/gh that's why I said essentially zero. It's too low either way.

 

[Asteroid]

There's no issues, I just have a shop down the road and like to use RO. I did start with tap a while ago and got a lot of brown algae which I assume was from high silicates.

If there's nothing really off with your tap, I would use it instead of RO with the AS. Your creating more work for yourself by adding things back in. In most cases the tap and regular micro dosing will give you all the Ca/Mg you need. There's no reason you should have a problem with brown algae if the tank is humming along.

 

[Ddrizzle]

There's no issues, I just have a shop down the road and like to use RO. I did start with tap a while ago and got a lot of brown algae which I assume was from high silicates.

If there's nothing really off with your tap, I would use it instead of RO with the AS. Your creating more work for yourself by adding things back in. In most cases the tap and regular micro dosing will give you all the Ca/Mg you need. There's no reason you should have a problem with brown algae if the tank is humming along.

Noted. So far this "work" has been fun 😉

 

[DaveKS]

The yellow tint, as with any soil are just humic and fulvic acids. Their not something you should fight, their found in every freshwater ecosystem on the planet. They should always be present, don’t have to be at levels that give you really yellow water but they should always be there in at least small amounts. That yellow tint and CEC binding sites is where all your hardness has gone. Fulvic acid has a particular affinity for Ca etc.

Their PH regulators, their loaded with trace/macro compounds bound up with a natural chelators. Those compounds are easier for plants to uptake so plant doesn’t have to expend energy making roots strip nutrients at CEC binding sites. Plants will always go for them before making roots do extra work gathering nutrients. Fulvic acid has been shown to significantly increase uptake of iron and other trace metals. It actual delivers whatever nutrient it’s bound with directly through cell membranes into the cell, again meaning your plant doesn’t have to expend energy on doing that function.

They also make plants more resistant to environmental stressors, they can actual prevent or at least help reduce melt in some plants. They also help plants produce a enzyme that protects and enhances plants resistance and recovery as well as helping natural allopathic processes that keeps algae away.

 

[cl3537]

I wouldn't put in anymore shrimp until your TDS, and kh have stabilized for at least a month.
I would follow the instructions of the Aquasoil and not try to adjust the parameters.
If the Aquasoil is absorbing Ca then it should be available to your stem plants through the roots.

 

[Ddrizzle]

Update:

I've switched back to using tap water. Although it's very hard and the ph is high, my plants and fish are ok and the water is crystal clear instead of yellow. So strange!

I just put some amanos in yesterday and they have survived as well! Super happy

All in all, something in my aquasoil or hardscape materials was keeping the water insanely soft when remineralizing my RO and in turn, changing the color to yellow. My shrimp probably died due to the nonexistent hardness is my guess.