Does it really depend on your ambient room temp?Ive used a diy one with great success,it does depend on your ambient room temp, Since my House is around 78+ year round I did have to use one,certain plants I could not get to grow well my set up years ago
75 gal 48x18x18
4 x pc 5000k
2 x pc 6700k
9 bags of flourite
3 bags of onyx
20 lbs of 1-2 mm gravel
I also like to refer to this
It can work, that's why I originally bought mine, the idea was heating the gravel would hold the heat better. But you still need a water column heater really.Tom can I get your thoughts on heating of the tank using heating cables as an alternative to a heater? is it viable?
As for seeing results in warmer rooms, I do believe that too high a temp is deterimental , I would shut it off should my tank watertemp exceed 80fDoes it really depend on your ambient room temp?
If that is the case, we should see the same results in warmer rooms right?
Are you sure it's the heat cables that allow you, after years of exoperience now, to grow plants better, or was it you did not have the skill set you do now, routines, care, CO2 attention, ferts etc?
I've used Cables in environmentally controlled rooms, as well as plain old rooms without AC, but had plenty of heat, as well as those that did not.
I never was able to attribute anything to cables after 10 years, 7 sets of them, 2 dupla, 1 sandpoind and 5 DIY'ers.
What specific plants do you feel that you cannot grow without cables?
I will say cables never hurt anything, but I've never seen one tank, one argument, not one shred of any scientific support of any sort for them.........I've been looking for about 20 years and
What I have heard is stuff like this: marketing baloney, no hard quantitative data of any sort, Claus from Tropica also saying they do not do anything ansd do not help plant growth, Tropica is Europes largest Aquatic plant grower FYI.......been around decades.........you'd figure they'd know.......
I measured the redox valves and compared the flow rates Claus told me 8 years ago and found that the cables produced flow rates about 10X too fast for optimal growth rates for roots.
So there is no support in terms of growth rates near as I, nor Claus, nor Ole can tell..............
I argued with George Booth for several post about cables years ago.
He could not substantiate any really effects other than added to ther stability ove rtghe long term and was subtle.
To which I replied, well, if it's subtle and can only been noted over long time frames(12-24 months according to George) , how can one possibly be sure given any user's routine variation over that same time?
That would hardly be significant.
I'm not saying that they hurt plant growth, research would suggest that they can however, but they sure do not help either.
Why would shutting the cables on/off for a few months to compare be such are hard, problematic test to do?
There are many aquarists who have used cable sin the past and the present that have them turned off all summer and they never notice anything related to growth/substrate etc issues.
This pattern is repeatable.
I would like to hear your reasoning why they do work and what makes you sure that it is not something you have done and which plant species are hard to grow without cables.
Every single of the over 100 species I grew with cables, I can grow well or better without cables..........
So I knew it could not be due to the cables, that they where not a significant component as Dupla had claimed going back over 20 years.
CO2 gas? Yes, that was true.
Excess NO3 and PO4 = algae, not true.
Good current= true.
Just because it says it, charge a lot, makes claims, does not mean it really works, nor that they really tested it.
So why would that not apply to a substrate then?As for seeing results in warmer rooms, I do believe that too high a temp is deterimental , I would shut it off should my tank watertemp exceed 80f
So the plants never grew and the biomass always stayed the same the entire time?I never changed a thing,
Things that just did not grow well till I added it where glos,crinuim cala, and a few others, they survived but did not flourish
I did see a big difference in my red and zenkeri lillies, and saw a noticable improvement in the barclaya'sWhich like warmer temps and grow faster, as do all plants, when the temp is warmer....
Gloss, Crinums, Barclayas etc are pretty weedy without any cables, other aquarists that have grown them without cables can easily vouch for that.
They do not just survive, them are weeds............same for lilies...........
So is it the cables that are really helping here?
I have serious doubts...........
Hydrologix made something like that, Severla folks on the APD years ago tryinged a heater stick in a PCV grid, I used high flow RFUG's and CPVC which is about 1/2 the size of normal PVC.My system was not cables, but rather tubing with a seperate tank of water with a pump and heater,I'm sure you tired that one
I reasoned that this produce as good if not better current through the sediments, equilibrate the tank temp with the sediment temps even better.
This would transport waste out, solve any cold feet issues, improve circulation, add more biofiltering.
It did do that, however plants where not any better off.
Later I tried tanks without any flow through the sediment, much like most folks do today.
That yielded, as predicted by Claus and my own data, the best root and plant growth overall.
It was also simpler and cheaper to go that route.
For the time(1986-2000), many thought cables where the thing.
But comparing high, low and no flows, as well as turning them off and seeing that plants grew fine if not better to many in the much warmer summers here showed that it was not something folks could see, generally it was some other things, some variation.
When pressed, few had done experiments back and forth to see, however
we had to do that to keep temps from creating 85F+ to 90F+ and add fans etc several times a year. Yet we noted no effects to speak of on health or plant growth, other than more biomass due to warmer temps in general, not anything to do with substrate heat itself.
Some suggested that the RFUG was too fast, then I asked what flow rates might be optimal...........
Again, we get back to the flow rate, and adding plant roots in there changes all of that dramatically and exchanges the flux in many different ways.
That's all the cables do, exchange the water above. Adding some warmer temps will increase metabolism, but you can do that to the whole tank with or without cables or a RFUG.
So using a RFUG ruled out the temp issue.
The rest was just a flow rate issue.
You can also see a dramatic different using Flourite vs plain Sand, and likewise a big noticable difference using ADA aqua soil vs sand or Flourite.
Much more than with cables.
Still, when you try to see if something works, you need to try it a few times back and forth. this makes sure it's not just a one time thing.
Yes, you might do something else etc during that time that may confound things, but........ this greatly minimizes it and also you are now looking for a difference specific with the one treatment and are much more aware of the system.
Done several times, say 6-10, you have a pretty good idea if you are somewhat careful.
For the $ and the marketing claims, I need something to be a bit more than "subtle" and for it to work fairly robustly for most folks.
ADA AS has, Flourite/onyx have, CO2 obviously, etc
I've honestly really really tried with cables to see if they have any worth while merits. Any research support, any practical test we could do as hobbyists etc.
I just have never found any that supports the marketing hype.
I'd love it if someone had some experiments to show that it does work, or can work, or research.
Unfortunately I have never found this yet, but I still look for alternatives and test that might..........
Maybe my bed was too thick 5 inches?
I'm sure your way more experienced then I am , esp since I have been out of the scene for more then 5 years and there has been some advancement in the hobby
So why would that not apply to a substrate then?
Also, how high of temp is deterimental and to which plants?
It gets a lot warmer in FL(100F) and CA(110-115F) than in Hawaii.
Also, it's gets a lot colder(Freezing etc). Other folks in in the USA also have some colder rooms. As cold/cool as Europe.
You also say you now shut the heater off when it gets 80F, when prior, you claimed the house is 78F year round before and that was the reason you used it and it worked, which situation is it?
So the plants never grew and the biomass always stayed the same the entire time?
Every tank changes through time.........that's why I go back and forth several times, not just once, to make sure it's not just some other effect, say, nice root growth, as roots pump O2 and alter sediments a great deal once they grow in well. Roots also move and shift the sediment around.
Things that just did not grow well till I added it where glos,crinuim cala, and a few others, they survived but did not flourish
I did see a big difference in my red and zenkeri lillies, and saw a noticable improvement in the barclaya's
I asked you how you could be sure if it was due to what you claimed.Everyone has a different school of thought, you want to get all agrumentative about it that's up to you.
Sorry I am not nearly as technical as you are, nor do I care to be,also it's a hobby for me,plain and simple,what you may considered weeds, I call them plants,sorry oh GURU of planted tanks
You said it helped these plant species grow better.Yes my room temp would stay around 76-78 all year round most 78f, even during are so called winter here, Yes I believe my heater shut off at 80f, very narrower window temp,as for bio mass, it did stay near the same, I tried to keep all plants trimed to the way I like them as much as possible, 2 hours once aweek on triming alone-that's why I got out of it
I used becasue it was something to try ,I liked the results and plan on using one again. It had nothing to do with my room temp, I wanted better circulation thru my substrate and that was what I went with
Yes I am surely not as technical as you are, hell I can not even spell that great,I asked you how you could be sure if it was due to what you claimed.
A person asked a question, folks expressed their views on the topic, and supported them. You claimed otherwise.
I asked for some support.
There's no doubt that your comment was a personal sarcastic and patronizing remark however.......
Keep it on topic, stay away from that personal baloney.
You said it helped these plant species grow better.
So how can you explain the fact that many aquarists can grow plants at the same if not a much higher level/very fast growth rates(1-2" daily) without cables if they are as helpful as claimed? Was it due to the cables, or perhaps some other reason you had trouble growing the plants??
I'm not here to pick on you personally nor engauge in a personal argument.
Yet, not testing/no desire to do any test either is your support?
Forgive my skepticism, but it does seem quite warranted and justified.
You certainly have the right to state your belief, and I have the right to state mine. However, I also suggest some simple test anyone can do to see and can suggest other test to show that you can do other things to compare the system/treatments.
Then you can learn a great deal more about the topic, rather than guessing and hoping. You can also see what changes you did that really helped to improve the tank's health and growth.
If you are simply unwilling to do the work yourself to show and see, that's fine. But then you cannot say much about such test that you have not done either ....... it still remains an unanswered question for you.
Ambient room temps alone?
Too high or too low a flow?
Not enough replicates?
Poor control over other variables such as NO3/PO4/CO2?
You need some sort of standard control to compare against.
Most simply use the tank itself and turn on/off the cables for a week, 2-4 weeks etc or a few months and see. doing this several times allows you some idea of possible issues and changes you may have made between test.
The claim is based on the "thermal circulation" flow. When there's no heat, there's not much flow.
You also need to be able to grow the plants well in both conditions.
Clearly, folks can grow Gloss like a weed without cables. You claimed otherwise. We know that cannot be true however.
So there is another issue involved here that prevented you from growing the Gloss and lilies,Crinums.
Few would disagree with that assessment.
So was it due to the cables or something else?
Sounds like, and I'm not being the least bit unreasonable here for anyone that's grow a gloss rug well knows, it was some other reason that caused poor growth.
You can easily cycle between the cables on/off for whatever time frame of interest.
All you have to do is flip a switch.
That's not technical, it's pure and simple, any hobbyist can do that I hope.
Also, see if you can grow Gloss without cables at a 1"-2" per day rate.
then add cables and see what the difference is.
Both simple things that will increase your own understanding, learn more about horticulture/improve your growing abilities.
Neither can I, just don't careYes I am surely not as technical as you are, hell I can not even spell that great,
You are not much different than most aquarist.I just do care that much nor have the resources to do so.
ambient room temp 78 normally I am sorry but I dont keep records -shame on me
Are you in Ohau?But I know where where using same substrate and chemicals
I have no idea what you mean by the third question
Well, try to isolate things.I think as beginner it' is a helpful item to have, is it a must? no, will I use one again, yes just to get my "legs" back
I ve got alot of relearning to do ,and then some
I argued viciously to support PO4 and NO3 dosing as did a few others.To my chagrin I discover that much has changed since I was gone-back when I was last interested, dosing nitrate and phosphate was a radical idea. Now it's accepted and even used to rid a tank of algae! I had to laugh to myself as I was cleaning out the closet, finding the containers of Thiel Aqua Tech X-Nitrate and X-Phosphate thinking "no wonder it didn't get rid of the algae! It was probably making it grow!"
So try this: use a reptile heating pad, they can be set for 80F etc or whatever.I have it on a timer: on for 15 minutes, off for 15 minutes. My thinking was to move water through the substrate by this. It just seemed to me that whenever I was doing any major overhaul of the tank,pulling up plants to change something because it just wasn't working, that the substrate was so much more colder than the water column.