[roadmaster]

I wouldnt say the information out there is inaccurate, or that they get a bad rap. They are aggressive by nature and keeping them together is an art. Mulit-species tanks can be quite a challenge, so can a single species for that matter. One of the biggest problems I think is a lot of people decide they want cichlids and just go out and buy a bunch of the prettiest colors. Then one or two gets beat to death they go out and by a couple more. Rinse and repeat.

Given the right environment they can be extremely rewarding. One of the key ingredients is to have TONS of cover and hidey-holes. Rich's tank is a perfect example. Ive had a breeding pair of Brichardi and a breeding pair of Julie in the same 75 gallon tank with half a dozen other cichlids before.

I agree..
Am also impressed with your keeping spawning brichardi and other fishes in same tank.
I too have bred the Brichardi and have seen them send much larger cichlid's to upper corner's of the tank when protecting fry.
Hell,the whole family of brichardi once fry get some size,,will protect other younger family /fry from all interloper's no matter their size or temperment.

 

[roadmaster]

Like everything in the hobby, YMMV.

I built a 240 gallon, 8x2x2 ft. I put in central and south American cichlids, oscars, Salvini, jaguars, dovii, red devils, red terrors, as well as arrowana and tiger shovel nose.

Guess what happened. Nary a death, jaguars, oscars, Salvini all had spawns plus raised some to well beyond fry size. Arrowana met its usual death, jumping out.

In my current 140, leleupi and brichardi are breeding, with juvenile fish present now, with peacocks, brevia and others all in tank.


Cichlids can be housed in a variety of tanks, planted or not, but be prepared that it might not work. My experience has been raise a bunch from juveniles and it MIGHT work out. Adding more mature fish to an established set up is much more problematic

Having kept many of the species you mention,, I doubt there were no losses .
Fry would have been non exisistent,if they ever existed in such a tank due to natural instinct's of these fishes.
I don't however doubt that the Arrowana jumped out.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Cichlids is such a large diverse group that one can be found for pretty much an situation. Angles, Rams, Kribs, Apistogramma are just a few examples (each with multiple species) which will thrive and do well in a planted tank. Most do exhibit some aggression when spawning, but the level of aggression varies considerably by type.

 

[PlantedRich]

I do find most cichlids do much better at taking care of their fry than many groups would. It's been a while since I read what defines a cichlid but I think "advanced parental care" was part of the basic decription. It certainly takes a good deal more to care for a bunch of active little fry than is required of fish who may simply scatter their eggs.
While I would never consider cichlid emotions to be anywhere as complex as human emotions, I think it is missing a lot if we say they do not have some type of thought and reaction to a situation. They certainly learn to a certain level and some of that seems to indicate emotion. Those of us who have had a favorite cihlid for some time have often seen them react to us differently than to strangers. Many have used a net to scare a cichlid into behaving for a few days. It may not be learning or it may not be scared but if you hold a cichlid in a net for a couple hours, he will often remember it the next day and all you have to do is wave the net and he changes what he is doing!

As for aggression, it does vary a lot and much of that does involve raisng a group of fry. To me whether they "think" or not is purely how we define "thinking". They plan when they build a nest site. They display for females. They go through all the actions to protect their family even fighting to the death with larger fish.
When we guys do that we are credited with thinking so I'm willing to say my fish think.

The larger fish in my pictures is the male (father?) of the two smaller. Some would call that a grandfather to the fry? He was not aggressive and did not have to be frightened away. This was an action that I saw several times. Often enough that I got the camera and was ready when it happened again. He never turned on his black agrressive colors which he could have if he had wanted. He and his female had their spot back at the other end of the tank and he would drift by now and then. It may be just projecting human emotions onto a fish but it sure fits what I see humans do.
Is it a case of fish not having emotions or maybe a case of us not being able to recognise what we are seeing?
Is it rational to say your dog loves you but a fish is only wanting food?

 

[Subtletanks91]

I do find most cichlids do much better at taking care of their fry than many groups would. It's been a while since I read what defines a cichlid but I think "advanced parental care" was part of the basic decription. It certainly takes a good deal more to care for a bunch of active little fry than is required of fish who may simply scatter their eggs.
While I would never consider cichlid emotions to be anywhere as complex as human emotions, I think it is missing a lot if we say they do not have some type of thought and reaction to a situation. They certainly learn to a certain level and some of that seems to indicate emotion.

As for aggression, it does vary a lot and much of that does involve raisng a group of fry. To me whether they "think" or not is purely how we define "thinking". They plan when they build a nest site. They display for females. They go through all the actions to protect their family even fighting to the death with larger fish.
When we guys do that we are credited with thinking so I'm willing to say my fish think.

The larger fish in my pictures is the male (father?) of the two smaller. Some would call that a grandfather to the fry? He was not aggressive and did not have to be frightened away. This was an action that I saw several times. Often enough that I got the camera and was ready when it happened again. He never turned on his black agrressive colors which he could have if he had wanted. He and his female had their spot back at the other end of the tank and he would drift by now and then. It may be just projecting human emotions onto a fish but it sure fits what I see humans do.
Is it a case of fish not having emotions or maybe a case of us not being able to recognise what we are seeing?
Is it rational to say your dog loves you but a fish is only wanting food?

I agree with this. While they may have different thought actions, and ways to perceive emotion. They still perceive it none the less. Take rams, on a usual case there monogamous, certain penguins as well. Not everything is just instinct and urge.

 

[frog111]

Having kept many of the species you mention,, I doubt there were no losses .
Fry would have been non exisistent,if they ever existed in such a tank due to natural instinct's of these fishes.
I don't however doubt that the Arrowana jumped out.

Doubt if you will, but I did not lose a single fish to aggression. Lots of fry were eaten, but with enough rock work, some did survive. As I said to start, YMMV. I have also had other tanks where fish died due to aggression, some cichlids, some just oddballs, some community fish.

 

[burr740]

I agree..
Am also impressed with your keeping spawning brichardi and other fishes in same tank.
I too have bred the Brichardi and have seen them send much larger cichlid's to upper corner's of the tank when protecting fry.
Hell,the whole family of brichardi once fry get some size,,will protect other younger family /fry from all interloper's no matter their size or temperment.

It's true. The Brichardi had their bed on one side of the tank, and Julie's on the other (48" 75 Gal). I siphoned/netted all the fry from those two within a couple days of hatching. At the time I had several grow out tanks for offspring in different stages of maturity. I was supplying two stores and a handful of individuals with juvies. Removing the fry so quickly made them spawn again almost immediately. There was a new batch of each literally every 10-12 weeks.

The other cichlids I had in the tank were also Tanganyikan - a Lelupi, a five bar Frontosa, which was by far the biggest fish, couple of shell dwelling Brevis, a Compressiceps, and some kind of Tropheus with a blue face.

That particular tank will always be one of my all time favorite set-ups, had it for about 5 years during the early 2000s.

 

[roadmaster]

Doubt if you will, but I did not lose a single fish to aggression. Lots of fry were eaten, but with enough rock work, some did survive. As I said to start, YMMV. I have also had other tanks where fish died due to aggression, some cichlids, some just oddballs, some community fish.

May I ask how many fish you had to remove before they were killed outright?
I ask this due to the difficulty I had (most folk's) of getting spawning pair's without placing numerous fishes in my tank's of each species mentioned.
Some were rejected and I managed to remove them before they were killed outright, other's were set upon by more aggressive fishes during times when I was not around to save them.
Can't sex Oscar's (reliably ) or some of the other's mentioned,, so placing them in group's were needed to achieve any hope of spawning.
Red devil's knocked hell out of everything including sibling's that were raised together so they were left in their own tank once a pair formed.
the whole expierience required several large tank's with secure lid's,large stock tank's to hold other's. (Jaguar's,Dovi)
In the end,,I settled for a 90 gal tank with one Severum,one Firemouth,one Blue Acara,one convict,and one Oscar.
Much more enjoyable,less work,way less food's needed.

 

[GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy]

Not all of them are bad, just the ugly ones. So all except rams.

 

[Fiftymeatballs]

Not all of them are bad, just the ugly ones. So all except rams.

Cichlids eat guppy's, of course you don't like them :icon_eek:

 

[PlantedRich]

Cichlids eat guppy's, of course you don't like them :icon_eek:

This is part of the information which I feel is not correct. SOME cichlids eat guppies! Some cichlids do not! Some cichlids do not eat meat of any sort! Some are too mild to attempt to attack a guppy.

 

[Fiftymeatballs]

This is part of the information which I feel is not correct. SOME cichlids eat guppies! Some cichlids do not! Some cichlids do not eat meat of any sort! Some are too mild to attempt to attack a guppy.

Yes agreed, I should have said "some". I was poking fun at guppies vague statement saying rams are the only good cichlids. There are thousands of species of cichlid, some aggressive some not. They are the majority in freshwater ecosystems all over the world. I keep different species of south american cichlids in my tanks, I think they are awesome and very intelligent.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I agree with this. While they may have different thought actions, and ways to perceive emotion. They still perceive it none the less. Take rams, on a usual case there monogamous, certain penguins as well. Not everything is just instinct and urge.

Hhhhmmmm . . . interesting thought, but I think that science would argue that these organisms being monogamous has nothing to do with emotion. If I remove either member of the pair, the other member will find a new individual to pair with almost immediately when reproducing.

 

[Subtletanks91]

I've had ram pairs that have bonded, and had a mate die while introducing new females to the tank the male never paired with another.

This is like saying that anything living that has just for example nerves. What happens when you hit or cut a nerve, you get a sensation of pain right. While this is not an emotion it is a feeling. So it goes to say that they can feel things physically why not emotionally, because we as a "superior" being to a fish can have emotions and day that fish can't because they can't walk talk or communicate with us. They have there own way of communication.

I'll admit there are some fish rather than others that possibly can't feel emotion. Bu there are others that can "think" so therefore I am inclined to say have emotion.

All we can do is speculate what we think and believe to be. We can't really prove anything just because you can study something and you think you know doesn't mean that we as a species know for sure. It's all just speculation and guessing.

 

[CrypticLifeStyle]

Didn't science prove this forever ago that fish not only feel pain, but have emotions as well?

Does anyone observe their fish anymore or are they just strictly a add-on piece to a tank.

 

[Subtletanks91]

Didn't science prove this forever ago that fish not only feel pain, but have emotions as well?

Does anyone observe their fish anymore or are they just strictly a add-on piece to a tank.

+1 I agree 100%

 

[Art by Stef*]

I think we should look at the initial thread, before starting the whole fish emotion thingy.
"Are all cichlids bad?"
What makes them bad? Because they eat other fish, or uproot plants?
It's what fish do.

I think a lot of people like to attribute extraordinary behaviors to their pets.
That's fine and dandy, just don't be shocked if it follows its natural behaviors some time during its life.
I seen people remark about their guppies being fry eaters, and condemn the fish.
It's perfectly natural, although an inconvenience to someone trying to breed.
It doesn't make the fish "bad".

Same with people who boo-hoo when they fail to clip their pet bird's wing and it flies away, or those who brag "my dog doesn't need to be leashed" and gets hit by a car.

Or, I never cover my tanks because my fish have never jumped. It only takes once, and I have some uncovered tanks. I will take full responsibility for being a dummy if one jumps because I should know better. (A cover would ruin my 'scape)

Animals follow their own agenda, and there are exception to every species behaviors.
Best to do as much research as you can before acquiring a pet, fish or otherwise, and knowing what to expect stops the labeling of "good" or "bad."

I have a betta that slaughters snails-not to eat-but because it just likes to.
No competition for food, or threat perception that I can see.
His brother absolutely loves snails-stares at them for hours, does circles around the tank and races back to see if his new chum is watching, and falls asleep on them.
I prefer the snail lover personality, but I can't judge the other, because he is, after all, a fighting fish. It's part of their behavior.

-Stef*

 

[Subtletanks91]

Yeah we did get a little off topic there haha. There's always going to be debates on aspects of fish there environments and behaviors.

But needless to say stef is right. You can't condemn a certain species because of its behavior or action.

 

[GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy]

Cichlids eat guppy's, of course you don't like them :icon_eek:

Mine don't bother my guppies or their fry.