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Hey all,
Just joined the forum, I am an active poster on the aquarium co-op forum (C.A.R.E.) I am under the user name "James Black" on that forum. I will probably be more of a lurker hear. Anyway anyone else from the aquarium co-op forum or youtube channel?
I look forward to learning from all of you,
cheers!
-James B
 

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"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." Gandalf: Lord of the Rings
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Welcome to TPT

I follow him on YouTube and I have a aquarium co op forum account. my name is the same on both accounts.

Sent from my KFONWI using Tapatalk
 

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I'm not on that forum because it seems fairly YT-channel unfriendly (something I might start eventually), but welcome to the forum irregardless! There's a lot of good information in people's brains here, so feel free to ask questions and post here as well! There're a lot of good answers waiting for ya!
 

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Not a fan of Aquarium CO-OP- at all.
I find Aquarium CO-OP's push for selling a "med trio" ( the indiscriminate use of antibiotics on ALL fish in quarantine) is extremely irresponsible. With what we know about antibiotic resistance, it would seem more hobbyists would take pause in treating fish with an antibiotic ( in this case, erythromycin) in quarantine when there are no active symptoms indicating an antibiotic is necessary. Erythromycin is an antibiotic actively used in the treatment of some very serious and deadly conditions in humans, to use it the way that Cory recommends is a direct threat to those individuals that may need this drug to be effective for them in real life or death situations.

 

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Not a fan of Aquarium CO-OP- at all.
I find Aquarium CO-OP's push for selling a "med trio" ( the indiscriminate use of antibiotics on ALL fish in quarantine) is extremely irresponsible. With what we know about antibiotic resistance, it would seem more hobbyists would take pause in treating fish with an antibiotic ( in this case, erythromycin) in quarantine when there are no active symptoms indicating an antibiotic is necessary.
I generally like Aquarium Co-op, but I'm in full agreement that it's irresponsible to recommend routine antibiotics. It seems like most of their practices are based in their (considerable) experience, but there are some things you need to watch out for before you experience them even once. Antibiotics work great... until they don't anymore. It's a huge business risk and a risk to the hobby, as well and human health as you've mentioned. (The human health risk is obviously more serious, but less likely. I think it's nearly inevitable that they will end up with resistant fish pathogens, whereas resistant human pathogens are "merely" a possibility.)
 

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I generally like Aquarium Co-op, but I'm in full agreement that it's irresponsible to recommend routine antibiotics. It seems like most of their practices are based in their (considerable) experience, but there are some things you need to watch out for before you experience them even once. Antibiotics work great... until they don't anymore. It's a huge business risk and a risk to the hobby, as well and human health as you've mentioned. (The human health risk is obviously more serious, but less likely. I think it's nearly inevitable that they will end up with resistant fish pathogens, whereas resistant human pathogens are "merely" a possibility.)
Glad you put those quote marks on that "merely" a possibility. ;)

Glad you put those quote marks on that "merely" a possibility. ;)

And, that's the thing. This guy is an experienced hobbyist; yet, when it comes to this Med Trio he states in his video on the matter that he has referred to ichthyologists in order to make this recommendation and scientific-based studies to ensure its usefulness and safety as a quarantine protocol ( he makes no mention of the connection of antibiotics used indiscriminately- of course, there is the true irresponsibility. I, myself, do not believe the chances of indiscriminate use of antibiotics are of minute significance; actually, I feel they are of dire significance).
But, back to this guy---
First of all, if you are going to state that your recommendation is "science-based" you are stepping outside the expert hobbyist recommended realm and into that of evidence based info. There are no attached science- based materials to refer to to see this evidence based claim is correct. So, I asked him months ago--directly in comments in attached video (where he introduced his chemical bomb as "scientific")-- info on recommendation from ichthyologist and data used to make determination.

No answer as yet.
But, if any of the fans on here can link me to this info I would love to see it

Video:

My questions and comments:

1. What ichthyologist did you refer to, as mentioned in video, when you were devising this med trio? 2. You contend that the proof of the effectiveness of this trio is three-fold: Your 10 years of anecdotal experience in fish-keeping, the advice that you received from an ichthyologist confirming your choice of meds were effective, and the extensive testing that you did between tank A and tank B. Great-- that sounds very much like a scientific start; however, the actual "science" ( the scientific validity behind the claim) gets muddled in what you explain of the process. The issue is this: your listeners ( customers for the med trio) get a generalized description of the methods you used to determine the "success" of this trio. Where are the descriptions/details of these studies? If you are going to infer that your med trio is backed by science (by an unnamed ichthyologist) and extensive testing between Tank A and tank B, details are needed. Otherwise, you are a mere" seller of wares" who is trying to pass off his moneymaking concoction as a scientific necessity. 3. There are plenty of places where the consumer can buy medications unblended. I do and have for over 30 years. There is no issue buying metheleyne blue alone. I just bought it a few months ago for fungus on my German Ram eggs. It took minutes to locate. I raise lots of cichlids: wild discus, wild geophagus, biotodoma cupido and wavrinni, Bolivian Rams, and Altum Angels. I can locate unblended metronidazole and praziquantel in minutes: Jehmco.com, Angelsplus.com, Amazon, Ebay, to name a few. Why use General Cure when you know that your fish is suffering from Hexamita. The praziquantel is not needed. Or, put in another way, why push General Cure on a customer as a preventative in quarantine when they are buying a tetra and not a cichlid? --Entirely unnecessary. I mean, give them the Rid X, I use malachite green myself as a preventative medication against Ich and an antibacterial for minor scrapes, for fin damage, etc... Actually, I like Paraguard better for this because it includes acriflavine. 4. And why erythromycin? Why would you have a customer dose a gram + antibiotic when 99.9 percent of all bacterial infections in the aquarium are gram - ? Erythromycin is no match for columnaris- it is useless. The most effective treatment for columnaris is a combination of nitrofurazone and kanamycin. 5. If you treat all your fish preemptively with this med trio, why do you recommend the customer purchase these meds again? 6. As someone so influential to new hobbyists, I would love to see you spend more time helping them understand active ingredients in aquarium fish medications and the issues they treat. You obviously have interest in hobbyists success beyond your business. A med bomb without understanding by those who use it is not a productive contribution to the hobby.
 

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Hey all,
Just joined the forum, I am an active poster on the aquarium co-op forum (C.A.R.E.) I am under the user name "James Black" on that forum. I will probably be more of a lurker hear. Anyway anyone else from the aquarium co-op forum or youtube channel?
I look forward to learning from all of you,
cheers!
-James B
Hi James,

Welcome to TPT!
Seattle_Aquarist (aka Roy)
 

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Oh yeah, forgot-- you know Cory. Maybe you could get him to answer these questions.
Hi @Discusluv,

I try very hard to avoid the 'drama' on the internet. If Cory sees the thread and chooses to respond that would be up to him.
-Roy
 

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I'm a fan of aquarium co-op for a few reasons. His youtube channel is very different from most(all?) others in that not only does Cory have insight as a business owner very different from most hobbyists but he also travels abroad to talk to different people about the hobby including fish farms and folks catching wild fish etc.

I also have fun with what I think of as the 'meta' content. Cory is a business man and he obviously has put a LOT of thought into making his business successful not only for the brick and mortar customers but also for people that know him from his online presence. Watching him leverage that reputation to sell products is a bit of grin. Mind you I don't begrudge him this at all. I would do the same in his situation. But that doesn't mean I'm going to dump my canister filter for a sponge filter, or stick a no clog airstone in my tank powered by a usb powered air pump, etc. And yet, I do buy the products that make sense for me. For instance I am currently using Easy Green in my newt tank and tadpole tank with good results. I also own the med trio. While I don't use it for every fish I bring in, I do keep it on hand incase I need it.

For an aquarium store getting fish from all over the world shipped to them, including wild caught, I can't say I fault him for its use either. I agree it doesn't make sense for regular hobbyists to use it constantly, especially when quarantining and observation is almost always a better and cheaper method.

That said, they are hardly the only people to use and promote antibiotics in fish. In one video of an asian fish farm they mention the use of 'yellow powder' which they buy in literal barrels and use to treat giant troughs of fish. They use so much the water itself turns yellow. When they do unboxing videos you sometimes see water that is died yellow from the 'yellow powder'. Well that yellow powder is nitrofurazone.
 

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I'm a fan of aquarium co-op for a few reasons. His youtube channel is very different from most(all?) others in that not only does Cory have insight as a business owner very different from most hobbyists but he also travels abroad to talk to different people about the hobby including fish farms and folks catching wild fish etc.

I also have fun with what I think of as the 'meta' content. Cory is a business man and he obviously has put a LOT of thought into making his business successful not only for the brick and mortar customers but also for people that know him from his online presence. Watching him leverage that reputation to sell products is a bit of grin. Mind you I don't begrudge him this at all. I would do the same in his situation. But that doesn't mean I'm going to dump my canister filter for a sponge filter, or stick a no clog airstone in my tank powered by a usb powered air pump, etc. And yet, I do buy the products that make sense for me. For instance I am currently using Easy Green in my newt tank and tadpole tank with good results. I also own the med trio. While I don't use it for every fish I bring in, I do keep it on hand incase I need it.

For an aquarium store getting fish from all over the world shipped to them, including wild caught, I can't say I fault him for its use either. I agree it doesn't make sense for regular hobbyists to use it constantly, especially when quarantining and observation is almost always a better and cheaper method.

That said, they are hardly the only people to use and promote antibiotics in fish. In one video of an asian fish farm they mention the use of 'yellow powder' which they buy in literal barrels and use to treat giant troughs of fish. They use so much the water itself turns yellow. When they do unboxing videos you sometimes see water that is died yellow from the 'yellow powder'. Well that yellow powder is nitrofurazone.
What do you use the erythromycin for that he recommends using in trio?
 

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What do you use the erythromycin for that he recommends using in trio?
I've caught wild fish before for use in aquarium and one came in acting oddly. I treated the whole tank with the trio. To this day I don't know what the issue was but the fish's behavior was normal after treatment. I'm not great at diagnosing fish disease (read terrible), so for me it is useful to have a nuclear option if I need it.
 

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I've caught wild fish before for use in aquarium and one came in acting oddly. I treated the whole tank with the trio. To this day I don't know what the issue was but the fish's behavior was normal after treatment. I'm not great at diagnosing fish disease (read terrible), so for me it is useful to have a nuclear option if I need it.

Here is some helpful information on bacterial infections in fish and the use of erythromycin:

"
Gram-Positive Bacteria versus Gram-Negative Bacteria

Most bacteria that infect fish fall into one of two groups—gram-positive or gram-negative. These groups are named based on their response to a protocol called gram staining. Gram-positive bacteria stain blue, and gram-negative bacteria stain pink. They stain differently because each group has a different type of outer structure known as the cell wall. This difference is important for the producer and aquaculturist because some antibiotics work better against gram-positive bacteria and others work better against gram-negative bacteria. Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative, including Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species. (See UF/IFAS Fact Sheets FA-14 Aeromonas Infections, FA-31 Vibrio Infections of Fish and FA-11 Columnaris disease). The major group of gram-positive bacteria that cause disease in fish are Streptococcus. (See UF/IFAS Circular 57 Streptococcal Infections in Fish.)"



"Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed.


 

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Welcome James . I am on the CO-OP forum as well . I am Leeatl like here . You seemed to have inadvertently opened a can of worms . I am concerned with the comments on the med trio as I have used it on QT fish and have some on hand for future use , but I am going to have to rethink and research the subject going forward .
 

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So I just want to touch on prophylactic quarantine, this is a post from the saltwater side of the hobby from one of the Big People in the hobby:


I am generally in agreement when it comes to treating with antibiotics to prevent superbugs, which is why if you're going to use an antibiotic, then you need to finish the recommended course out. Given that I work with fish and breed them, prophylactic treatment is going to be what I end up doing. However, I will also be working on figuring out as many ways to not use medication as possible (ex. tank transfer method to handle ich and velvet as opposed to putting fish in a copper bath). Disease doesn't seem to be as prevalent in the freshwater side of the hobby as the saltwater side for some reason, but
 

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So I just want to touch on prophylactic quarantine, this is a post from the saltwater side of the hobby from one of the Big People in the hobby:


I am generally in agreement when it comes to treating with antibiotics to prevent superbugs, which is why if you're going to use an antibiotic, then you need to finish the recommended course out. Given that I work with fish and breed them, prophylactic treatment is going to be what I end up doing. However, I will also be working on figuring out as many ways to not use medication as possible (ex. tank transfer method to handle ich and velvet as opposed to putting fish in a copper bath). Disease doesn't seem to be as prevalent in the freshwater side of the hobby as the saltwater side for some reason, but
This author is responsible enough to not include antibiotics in his recommended quarantine protocol.
 

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This author is responsible enough to not include antibiotics in his recommended quarantine protocol.
Metronidazole is an antibiotic (General cure contains a mix of Praziquantel and Metronidazole), although the goal of using it is to clear out internal and external ciliate infections (Uronema, internal stuff, etc.) and not for prophylactic bacterial infections....

Although I've almost never heard of metro being prescribed to human patients. Erythryomycin (and other -mycins like Azithromycin) from the med trio, does seem more popular for human use though.
 

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Metronidazole is an antibiotic (General cure contains a mix of Praziquantel and Metronidazole), although the goal of using it is to clear out internal and external ciliate infections (Uronema, internal stuff, etc.) and not for prophylactic bacterial infections....

Although I've almost never heard of metro being prescribed to human patients. Erythryomycin (and other -mycins like Azithromycin) from the med trio, does seem more popular for human use though.
Metronidazole is an antibiotic, your right; but, it doesn't have the antibiotic resistance implications that antibiotics like erythromycin does. Metronidazole is used frequently in humans.

 
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