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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Moderator hat on: If anyone insults another member or trolls, I'll be the first to send them on their way. Please do not troll - especially about something as hokey as this. Won't even wait for input from the rest of the moderation team. I get that it sucks to have a bunch of people pile on to point out you're... mistaken. But don't lash at out people who are offering input in a friendly and professional manner. Your snide remarks toward Greggz and others are not welcome. Now let me take off my moderator hat and respond...

..........

Full disclosure: I think Novak causes more harm than good because I moderate a large forum and read thousands of posts per week. Frequently have to read about the harm and confusion his hokey shtick causes with newcomers. Probably 2-3 times a month for the last decade. So I automatically roll my eyes and dismiss anything from him as unworthy of consideration. Much like he dismisses anyone in the comments who dares question him. I won't even begin to wade into his credentials but something doesn't smell right on that front, to say the least.

The international space station experiment is not remotely like anything you're doing in the planted tank hobby. I'll let what others have already said speak for itself on that matter.

Plenty of people keep planted tanks with tons of livestock. I'm one of them. We frequently have to add nitrates in order to grow plants. Even in tanks with tons of critters.

We know what CEC is.

Plenty of people here use undergravel filtration systems - mostly shrimpkeepers who want water to move through active/buffering substrates to facilitate more stable water parameters.

Any member of the forum is welcome to chime in on any discussion taking place on this forum if they have access. It's for discussion. They're free to discuss things, constructive or not.

Pretty sure the sulphur reactor bit is confusing you. Google how it works. I don't have the energy to explain it further because this is a massive drain.

Pseudoscience isn't unproven science. (Unproven science = theory.) Pseudoscience = beliefs or practices misconstrued as being based on science and the scientific method when they're not. Novak's theory, at this point, is just that. He hasn't proved it. That's fine. Just don't present it as being based in scientific fact. Cause when you do that? It's pseudoscience.

I'm all for trying new things when it comes to planted tanks. (Recent example here and here. Because doing stuff like this can be fun.) Pretty sure everyone here is. I'll try almost anything that's reasonably within reach. But a good rule of thumb: If something truly works? It gets picked up quickly in hobbies like this. There's a reason Novak's stuff hasn't been picked up in the decades he's been going on about it: it doesn't work as he claims. What works well is what gets widely accepted and picked up by most people in the hobby. So when it works and can be duplicated? Let us know. I won't be holding my breath - and not just because I have lung damage from COVID.

I always get a kick out of reading stuff like this. Makes my weekly water change (which accomplishes more than merely removing waste) seem like less of a hassle. Makes growing plants in boxes of water seem more relaxing - just like I like it.
sorry about your lung damage
 

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Moderator hat on: If anyone insults another member or trolls, I'll be the first to send them on their way. Please do not troll - especially about something as hokey as this. Won't even wait for input from the rest of the moderation team. I get that it sucks to have a bunch of people pile on to point out you're... mistaken. But don't lash at out people who are offering input in a friendly and professional manner. Your snide remarks toward Greggz and others are not welcome. Now let me take off my moderator hat and respond...

..........

Full disclosure: I think Novak causes more harm than good because I moderate a large forum and read thousands of posts per week. Frequently have to read about the harm and confusion his hokey shtick causes with newcomers. Probably 2-3 times a month for the last decade. So I automatically roll my eyes and dismiss anything from him as unworthy of consideration. Much like he dismisses anyone in the comments who dares question him. I won't even begin to wade into his credentials but something doesn't smell right on that front, to say the least.

The international space station experiment is not remotely like anything you're doing in the planted tank hobby. I'll let what others have already said speak for itself on that matter.

Plenty of people keep planted tanks with tons of livestock. I'm one of them. We frequently have to add nitrates in order to grow plants. Even in tanks with tons of critters.

We know what CEC is.

Plenty of people here use undergravel filtration systems - mostly shrimpkeepers who want water to move through active/buffering substrates to facilitate more stable water parameters.

Any member of the forum is welcome to chime in on any discussion taking place on this forum if they have access. It's for discussion. They're free to discuss things, constructive or not.

Pretty sure the sulphur reactor bit is confusing you. Google how it works. I don't have the energy to explain it further because this is a massive drain.

Pseudoscience isn't unproven science. (Unproven science = theory.) Pseudoscience = beliefs or practices misconstrued as being based on science and the scientific method when they're not. Novak's theory, at this point, is just that. He hasn't proved it. That's fine. Just don't present it as being based in scientific fact. Cause when you do that? It's pseudoscience.

I'm all for trying new things when it comes to planted tanks. (Recent example here and here. Because doing stuff like this can be fun.) Pretty sure everyone here is. I'll try almost anything that's reasonably within reach. But a good rule of thumb: If something truly works? It gets picked up quickly in hobbies like this. There's a reason Novak's stuff hasn't been picked up in the decades he's been going on about it: it doesn't work as he claims. What works well is what gets widely accepted and picked up by most people in the hobby. So when it works and can be duplicated? Let us know. I won't be holding my breath - and not just because I have lung damage from COVID.

I always get a kick out of reading stuff like this. Makes my weekly water change (which accomplishes more than merely removing waste) seem like less of a hassle. Makes growing plants in boxes of water seem more relaxing - just like I like it.
I take back what I said earlier in this thread.

This is now my favorite post from you!!
 

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I believe you mean there's quite a bit of pseudoscience around it. Mostly stemming from this guy who speaks in circles. He does more harm than good. People just believe him because he's spewing his nonsense on YouTube.

I've yet to see experiments that can be duplicated with controls. Just circular references, a lot of claims that aren't based in reality, indignation when anyone points out that the YouTube guy can't back up any of his claims.

This topic comes up here every once in a while. Encourage you to do a forum search or two to learn about the nitrogen cycle, how it's happening on every surface in your tank, Novak's hucksterism and the like.
Yes, you read me well (y)
 

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Technically.. Novak isn't the only one that preaches this:
Anoxic Filtration

I'm not going to judge one way or another.
Conversion (denitrification) of nitrate to N(gas) is pretty well understood.
The preferred nitrogen electron acceptors in order of most to least thermodynamically favorable include nitrate (NO3−), nitrite (NO2−), nitric oxide (NO), nitrous oxide (N2O) finally resulting in the production of dinitrogen (N2) completing the nitrogen cycle. Denitrifying microbes require a very low oxygen concentration of less than 10%, as well as organic C for energy. Since denitrification can remove NO3−, reducing its leaching to groundwater, it can be strategically used to treat sewage or animal residues of high nitrogen content. Denitrification can leak N2O, which is an ozone-depleting substance and a greenhouse gas that can have a considerable influence on global warming.

The process is performed primarily by heterotrophic bacteria (such as Paracoccus denitrificans and various pseudomonads),[1] although autotrophic denitrifiers have also been identified (e.g., Thiobacillus denitrificans).[2]

Applying it in a practical sense???
Somewhat a polarizing subject I'd say.

Anyone have a Scribd acount?

Or free book?
Anoxic Filtration Book... Still free on Apple's iBook store
This is to inform everyone on a new way of obtaining the Anoxic Filtration System’s CD-book that Syd Mitchel has so gracelessly added to his web sight.

If you have an Apple iPad, iPhone or iPod you can now download the book for free from the Apple iBook Store on your computer with iTunes. The Anoxic Filtration System CD-Book has been converted with the help of Apple’s iBook Author into a very colorful full version of the original CD-Book. Easier to read and page through without the breaking up of pages. Any page of the book can now be looked up easily and fast for reference when needed.


Anoxic Filtration System by Syd Mitchell, Tony Ruiz & Dr Kevin Novak
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/ano...04698627?mt=11
 

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Technically.. Novak isn't the only one that preaches this:
Anoxic Filtration

I'm not going to judge one way or another.
Conversion (denitrification) of nitrate to N(gas) is pretty well understood.


Applying it in a practical sense???
Somewhat a polarizing subject I'd say.

Anyone have a Scribd acount?

Or free book?
Mankey Sanke is Syd Mitchell. It's his pseudonym. Syd Mitchell cites research by Kevin Novak. Kevin Novak cites explanations by Syd Mitchell. Kevin Novak has never done any research. Syd Mitchell has never made any explanations that make any scientific sense. It's a big grift... They sell books, merch, and get youtube money from gullible people.
 

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Mankey Sanke is Syd Mitchell. It's his pseudonym. Syd Mitchell cites research by Kevin Novak. Kevin Novak cites explanations by Syd Mitchell. Kevin Novak has never done any research. Syd Mitchell has never made any explanations that make any scientific sense. It's a big grift... They sell books, merch, and get youtube money from gullible people.
Refund Policy | K.O.I.

I've seen worse..... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
Refund Policy | K.O.I.

I've seen worse..... ;)
True.
Nitrification and Denitrification, are well understood.
Like I said I started off in my early days with the simple undergravel filter [UG]. It works fine till my ignorance in feeding[40yrs ago] would jamed it out to crashing. Then the craze was to fitting a powerhead to the UG. Turns out to be a big prefilter [in my present day understanding]. The UG was history for me then. Till this day most will pour contempt on the UG.
My point is did we see the finner point of UG? Judging from our present day thinking, a likely no, me included.
So why a relook into a failure? I maybe wrong but I think time is a big factor. So tweaking flow rate I can increase the time for the denitrifiers to their favour.
Trolls will drown out thinking, but the sensible can input in some pros and cons.

Btw jeffkrol, "A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure" Not really sure what it means cos I kinda of have "two" watches on my time piece. By a click on my watch I can switch over to the current time when I cross time zones. Hmmm. No malice intended. O well...
 

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Btw jeffkrol, "A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure" Not really sure what it means cos I kinda of have "two" watches on my time piece. By a click on my watch I can switch over to the current time when I cross time zones. Hmmm. No malice intended. O well...
Segal's law
is an adage that states:

A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.[1]
The mood of the saying is ironic. While at a surface level it appears to be advocating the simplicity and self-consistency obtained by relying on information from only a single source, the underlying message is to gently question and make fun of such apparent certainty – a man with one watch can't really be sure he knows the right time, he merely has no way to identify error or uncertainty.

Nevertheless, the saying is also used in its purely surface sense, to caution against the potential pitfalls of having too much potentially conflicting information when making a decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Nevertheless, the saying is also used in its purely surface sense, to caution against the potential pitfalls of having too much potentially conflicting information when making a decision.

Fair.
On the other side, too fearful of caution against potential pitfalls may dull.
The DC and AC development is an intresting case study in the electrical industry.
Ok sorry for the digression.
 

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I recently (11 1/2 weeks ago) converted an existing aquarium (it's been running for about 1.5 years) to a Novak type annoxic filtration set-up. This is my experience.

TANK: 29 gal freshwater, minimal plants ( a couple good sized anubius, 1 java fern, and 3 pothos rooted in the tank). When I made the change-over to the Anoxic system I tried to change as little as possible so that I could compare before and after. The only change I made was to add the anoxic set-up per Novak's instructions. Filter media, plants, hardscape, substrate, fish, and snails all stayed in. The bioload consists of a few pond snails, 10 Glowlight danios, 7 Bickfords pencilfish, 7 Golden Dwarf barbs, 2 "dwarf" bristlenose plecos**.

The fish are fed lightly once daily with one day off each week. Water changes are 50% weekly. Before the anoxic changeover the nitrates were consistantly 10-20ppm prior to weekly WC (closer to 20ppm). The anoxic system has been set up for about 80 days. I believe Novak says it must be set up for 40-60 days for the anoxic bacteria to establish themselves.

So after 80 days I have seen no changes of any kind in the tank. Nitrates have remained exactly as before. I'm waiting on a large plant order, so my "controlled" experiment will end this week, but I will continue to monitor.

On the plus side, I figured I had nothing to loose except a little time and some pocket change. I didn't see any potential to harm the aquarium and I do enjoy DIY stuff. So if it didn't work, no harm done, but if it did work, well, wouldn't that be awesome!!

My concern about Novak is that he is a PHD that has (according to him) discovered or refined this denitrification approach that could revolutionize our hobby, but he apparently hasn't published any research on it. No studies of any kind that I can find. Instead all he delivers are anecdotes and generalized scientific explanations while dismissing those that challenge him. 30+ years is plenty of time to research and document his system, but he says that people don't want to hear the science. I do!! He should insist on it.

I asked him for research papers I could read, but got no response.

My mind is still open, but so far, I've seen no benefit to this set-up.

**EDIT: The 2 "dwarf" plecos were runts from a grow-out tank. They are 2 year old females that were out competed for food by their more aggressive siblings. They only grew to a couple inches. When I was setting this tank up I used them to keep the biofilter healthy while I waited for my other fish to arrive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 · (Edited)
I recently (11 1/2 weeks ago) converted an existing aquarium (it's been running for about 1.5 years) to a Novak type annoxic filtration set-up. This is my experience.

TANK: 29 gal freshwater, minimal plants ( a couple good sized anubius, 1 java fern, and 3 pothos rooted in the tank). When I made the change-over to the Anoxic system I tried to change as little as possible so that I could compare before and after. The only change I made was to add the anoxic set-up per Novak's instructions. Filter media, plants, hardscape, substrate, fish, and snails all stayed in. The bioload consists of a few pond snails, 10 Glowlight danios, 7 Bickfords pencilfish, 7 Golden Dwarf barbs, 2 "dwarf" bristlenose plecos**.

The fish are fed lightly once daily with one day off each week. Water changes are 50% weekly. Before the anoxic changeover the nitrates were consistantly 10-20ppm prior to weekly WC (closer to 20ppm). The anoxic system has been set up for about 80 days. I believe Novak says it must be set up for 40-60 days for the anoxic bacteria to establish themselves.

So after 80 days I have seen no changes of any kind in the tank. Nitrates have remained exactly as before. I'm waiting on a large plant order, so my "controlled" experiment will end this week, but I will continue to monitor.

On the plus side, I figured I had nothing to loose except a little time and some pocket change. I didn't see any potential to harm the aquarium and I do enjoy DIY stuff. So if it didn't work, no harm done, but if it did work, well, wouldn't that be awesome!!

My concern about Novak is that he is a PHD that has (according to him) discovered or refined this denitrification approach that could revolutionize our hobby, but he apparently hasn't published any research on it. No studies of any kind that I can find. Instead all he delivers are anecdotes and generalized scientific explanations while dismissing those that challenge him. 30+ years is plenty of time to research and document his system, but he says that people don't want to hear the science. I do!! He should insist on it.

I asked him for research papers I could read, but got no response.

My mind is still open, but so far, I've seen no benefit to this set-up.

**EDIT: The 2 "dwarf" plecos were runts from a grow-out tank. They are 2 year old females that were out competed for food by their more aggressive siblings. They only grew to a couple inches. When I was setting this tank up I used them to keep the biofilter healthy while I waited for my other fish to arrive.
[On the plus side, I figured I had nothing to loose except a little time and some pocket change. I didn't see any potential to harm the aquarium and I do enjoy DIY stuff. So if it didn't work, no harm done, but if it did work, well, wouldn't that be awesome!!] [/Quote]

I like your spirit.
Aged person like me do still learn. Thanks for the edit example at the foot note style. My ignorance.
Given a set reciepe, two cooks will come out with different results, especially with chinese cusine.
I will avoid criticizing people so that my focus is on relooking into anoxic filteration, and not derailed by bias.After all alternating current [ac] was side lined in the early development.
So far water flow rate is one crucial component.
I do not know your set up. Most of us may tend to think there is only one. There is the fast flow rate and there is the slow flow rate. Sounds confusing to me too. Maybe some thinking/relooking into it helps.
Thanks kfish for your valuable input. Will appreciate it if you can detail out your set up, like pumps, substrate material ect.

**Edit recipe not reciepe
 
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