Angel Breeding pair fighting after spawn???

Hi Drew

LB79 said:

Yeah, angels aren't great parents (unless they're the wild ones) and new pairs take a bit of time to figure everything out. THey should get down to it peacefully after a few spawns.

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(unless they're the wild ones) Even wilds learn to parent raise and fail the first few spawns. Nervous or spooked fish eat the fry, it's very common.
Bottle raised fry (pulled egg clutches) are even worse. Why? They never see or experience tending behavior. Parent raised domestic stock can be every bit the good parent just as this poster thinks wilds are. It's a learning game for them and what we do (closed system tanking) is nothing like nature.
In nature a pair only produce 2-4 surviving offspring during their entire lifetime. I never bother with hatching BBS unless I have at least 75-100 free swimming.

Snowflake311 said:

All I read was the topic.

Cichilds can have very messy relationships. It a high drama life being a cichilds. And for get about the dating life. I had a great breeding pair of angles they were fantastic parents for the first few spawns then they turn on each other. I had a blue acara pair that were really really bad. As soon as the eggs were lauded 24 hr after the parents fought over who got to keep them. It was a sad messy battle over who got the kids.

Honestly cichlids are crazy. It very common for there fish love to turn sour. I have been keeping different kind for 4+ yr.

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haha lots of truth and confusion in that post.

Laying the eggs the first time is pure instinct and urge. Fish probably are just as confused as we were the first time. No clue what to do after the act either and very nervous. Exhausted and hungry eggs are food, smell like food, taste like food so more confusion.

Almost ever pair will freak out when the tails emerge (wiggler stage) and eat the eggs after guarding them faithfully for 2 days.

Moving the wigglers from the spawn site to another location they feel is 'safer' some parents mouth the fry to hard and kill them. Once dead they do eat them on purpose.

Once fry start free swimming overly protective parents insist on catching every swimmer and spitting it back into the group. Suck em up, spit em out, suck em up, spit em out, suck em up, spit em out. The tiny fry can only take so much of this without damage.

Once free swimming the parents still group the fry and try to herd them in a group. At night fry still group in 'fry balls' when sleeping tended/guarded by the parents.

The first couple feedings of BBS freak out many new parents but that changes quickly once your at this stage of tank raising. All these stages up to feeding on flake food and looking like tiny angels is (imo) 50% instinct and 50% learned and remembered behavior. Remembered because parent raised fry get it right here time and again much faster than bottle raised fish.

During any of these stages if one fish 'thinks' the other is doing something wrong the clutch fails. If 'Dad' thinks the wigglers are in a good place but 'Mom' wants them moved if one or the other doesn't change it's mind the clutch is gone. These fish aren't completely stupid but neither are they college material. They have excellent eyesight and can recognize from across the room who feeds them. Mature fish can recognize a net or the food container in your hand walking up to the tank and act differently so they learn by conditioning. They also remember to a degree so they learn to parent raise. It takes a few tries for some to get it right and longer for others. I've never had 2 pairs do things exactly the same way.

During all this time events outside the tank effect results too. Change daily traffic patterns around the tank and parents get freaky. (All the people we share the event with staring into the tank)
In tank changes, slightly raised bacteria levels or a fungus in the tank, even temperature shifts and water changes can effect small fry.

No less than 5 attempts for a new pair to get it right here and as many as a dozen if not more for others. Some (rarely) just stay stupid LOL.

Fry that are parent raised (imo) get it right faster and are better parents.
Pull a good clutch to a bottle and raise 250-300 fry yourself or leave that same group with the parents and 50-200 maybe survive. It's a choice.
Also having to house growing fish how many do you want?

Thanks Everyone for the replies!!!

I was hoping that some of the Angel Fish Experts would chime in! I have had many, many cichlids breed successfully in my aquariums before just never Angels! All kind of Africans from Peacocks, Julies, Shellies, Mumba, German Blues and Golds, and Brichardies! And NEVER have any of them been this difficult! I have even had Captive bred Clown fish spawn, but no successful hatch happened!

So I guess I just have a dumb set of Angels!!! I am going to stick with them and hopefully they will get it right before they kill each other!!! If it gets to the point where they are really hurting one another I will trade them in to the last LFS here and they have a Angel Breeder that comes in and he will take them! I know that if they do get it right there will be some beautiful babies, but it might take someone who has success with Angels to get it right!

Thanks Again for all the help!!!
Drew