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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,
within a span of 3 days -- *I know something is wrong with the water, just not sure what*.
All my fire -red shrimp (cherry shrimp?) died from molting. All of them had the same characteristics of their shell breaking apart but the body still in tact.

About 60% of them showed like a bruising of the tail almost as though there's not enough oxygen in the body (like they suffocated)

My fish themselves were fine -- absolutely no fish loss. I'm just wondering what could be the deficiency. I have the same substrate and same type of plants and it's way more overstocked on my 3 gallon at work than my fluval spec v at home, and there's just something strange.

substrate azoo plant grower bed
ammonia = 0
nitrates = 0
nitries = 10-20ppm
ph = 6.8 with Co2 off
ph = under with Co2 on (never measured but I'm sure it's low)
Tap water has a ph of 7.2 out of the faucet.

Don't know gkh or dkh -- not sure how to measure that.

I'm wondering if it's the ph that's causing the molting issues

shrimp was acclamated into the tank while the lights and Co2 was off so it was closer to what they were use to (in the tank I got it from (which was at a PH of 7.6).

I'm wondering if it's a deficiency of something. I don't have any food that contains iodine or any dosing of it either.

any help? I just lost a total of 40 (2 batches) in the span of 6 days.
 

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Hi James,

Sorry to hear of your losses. I suggest getting a handle on the GH/KH as this is vital and a direct affect on molting and relative development of coloration and thickness of their shells.

For something that severe (death in days) would often require a catalyst like a dramatic shift in TDS or something whereby the environment were intolerable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi James,

Sorry to hear of your losses. I suggest getting a handle on the GH/KH as this is vital and a direct affect on molting and relative development of coloration and thickness of their shells.

For something that severe (death in days) would often require a catalyst like a dramatic shift in TDS or something whereby the environment were intolerable.
So here's more to the story, I apologize if I didn't put it in initially.

1st batch of shrimps = water change with Crystal Gyser drinking water. since it's a nano, it's not that expensive

2nd batch of shrimps = watch change with Tap water.

1st batch died in 3 days.
2nd batch died in 3 days.

Something innate in the aquarium that maybe causing this.

Here's a description of my substrate:
1st layer, osmocote
2nd layer, Pure Laterite
3rd layer, Azoo Plant Bed

my aquarium in my office utilizes the same 3 layers. Maybe I'm just bad with inverts because my snails also took a plunge on this. Luckily I have otos as my backup for algae cleanup and they are doing a fantastic job.

I did a 60% water change (2 1/2 gallons) yesterday. Not sure what else so far I will look into testing dkh and gkh, but I have no idea how.

any suggestions other than testing? =)

could a very low PH cause the molting problem? I don't think I gassed my shrimp since I have pygmy's and fish, they absorb way more oxygen and they are not gasping.

My Co2 is at 25-30ppm when the lights are on, shrimps took their death dive during the night.

Not to my knowledge. That would have to do with parameters changing too quickly.

How did you acclimate them?
My acclamation process was about 45-50 mins. I have a 1 ml pipette and I squirt about 2-3 ml per min into the container until it doubled in water, dumped it out -- did it again. a 2nd time (which was why it was 45-50 mins) and then pushed them into the water. I figure if it was ph shock, they would have some type of stiffness and just float everywhere with their tail up. (but not in this case).

I've spent about 50 dollars investing in shrimp and the lost is kind of meh, but I would like to be successful at this. thanks for all the comments ^_^
 

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what else lives in the tank? How long have your other inhabitants been in the tank? If they are used to the CO2 and the shrimp were new and not used to it it is possible you gassed them.
 

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PH doesn't cause molting issues, but kh and gh absolutely can. Petsmart, Petco, and virtually any LFS (plus online retailers) sell a kh/gh test kit that works just like the regular API test kits. If you're going to have shrimp, knowing these parameters is essential.

Drinking water that hasn't been modified is a poor choice for shrimp (at least for neos, I'm unfamiliar with cards) because all of the minerals have been stripped out that the shrimp need to build their "shells". I tested the kh and gh of a gallon of generic "drinking water" a couple weeks ago for curiosity, and both were 2 or below - not good for neos!

All that said, I wouldn't expect all 40 to attempt to molt and die within a 3 day period. But regardless of what conclusions y'all come to on this batch, you definitely need to have a good handle on gh/kh and possible adjust your water accordingly before trying a new batch.

Best of luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
what else lives in the tank? How long have your other inhabitants been in the tank? If they are used to the CO2 and the shrimp were new and not used to it it is possible you gassed them.
rasboras, and cories -- 2 otos.

fish is a bit overstocked but parameters appear to be normal.
Aquarium is moderately planted -- though I can do some more, but I think I just need to wait for the plants to fill in more instead of disturbing the substrate.

As far as Co2 -- if I acclimated them, as the Co2 turned on they should get use to it -- 30ppm is not enough to gas shrimp I believe. Since that's the normal amount that we should strive for.

Also if I gassed then, it would take less than 3 days to destroy the entire set -- more like maybe 4 hours to slowly gas them out. In addition, the only way I can see that they suffocated was if they did not properly get use to the PH in the water. The shock would cause their system to be unable to absorb oxygen in the water. At least this is what i know.

If I'm wrong (and I may very well be -- please point it out.) The only unknown now is GH and KH.

I have a kit coming in on thursday so I can test.
 

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In a softer CO2 tank I'd certainly recommend a Caridina species, like tigers or CRS. Our neos love hard water, very hard and breed exponentially. We have 8.2-8.4 out the tap and they love it. Going by your parameters I'd definitely say CRS/CBS Tibees would love that sort of tank.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
In a softer CO2 tank I'd certainly recommend a Caridina species, like tigers or CRS. Our neos love hard water, very hard and breed exponentially. We have 8.2-8.4 out the tap and they love it. Going by your parameters I'd definitely say CRS/CBS Tibees would love that sort of tank.

I'll definitely try that -- Would it be because of ph that they are dying? I thought Cherries would be fine in 6.x ph.

Won't know what the rest would be until thursday evening. I'll update then -- thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
PH doesn't cause molting issues, but kh and gh absolutely can. Petsmart, Petco, and virtually any LFS (plus online retailers) sell a kh/gh test kit that works just like the regular API test kits. If you're going to have shrimp, knowing these parameters is essential.

Drinking water that hasn't been modified is a poor choice for shrimp (at least for neos, I'm unfamiliar with cards) because all of the minerals have been stripped out that the shrimp need to build their "shells". I tested the kh and gh of a gallon of generic "drinking water" a couple weeks ago for curiosity, and both were 2 or below - not good for neos!

All that said, I wouldn't expect all 40 to attempt to molt and die within a 3 day period. But regardless of what conclusions y'all come to on this batch, you definitely need to have a good handle on gh/kh and possible adjust your water accordingly before trying a new batch.

Best of luck!
Thank you for your advice, I will take that into consideration -- I don't think crystal gyser strips too much out but since i am not utilizing that anymore, tap is my next best friend. I will be utilizing that from now on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
In a softer CO2 tank I'd certainly recommend a Caridina species, like tigers or CRS. Our neos love hard water, very hard and breed exponentially. We have 8.2-8.4 out the tap and they love it. Going by your parameters I'd definitely say CRS/CBS Tibees would love that sort of tank.
Thanks -- I'll try 1-2 tigers and if they work out with the new parameters I will move forward and try CRS or CBS. Just need to find some willing to sell cheap. I don't care about the quality right now, just want to know they can survive in the water with 6.x --

Thanks!
 

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Disclaimer here: I am not at all well versed in how all this stuff works together, someone much smarter than I can probably give you a real good explanation on it all. I'm just putting out the little bits of dumbed down info I've been able to pick up :)

I think pH on its own gets kind of a bad rap. In many cases, it's really the gH and kH (which influences pH) that create the issues. For instance, my water is 8.2pH out of the tap. My kH is through the roof (19ish), which is what drives my pH so high and keeps it there no matter how much driftwood and whatnot I have in my tanks. I can't keep cardinals alive in my tanks for more than a few months, but a friend (on a different water source) has been very successful at keeping them in his 8.4pH tank. The difference is that his kH is 3 vs. my 19. You always hear about them being acidic water fish, but when you really read up on it, the issue is more the high kH that usually (but not always) accompanies high pH water - which fits our little real world example. On the flip side, I've actually had to start adding a gH supplement to my water for my shrimp because despite the ridiculously high pH and kH, my gH is extremely low. I wasn't really losing many shrimp to it, but I will say my populations seem a lot healthier and seem to be increasing faster now that I've made that adjustment.

So all that to say, it is unlikely your pH is directly the issue with your shrimp - but the lower gH and kH that often accompany more acidic water may well be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Disclaimer here: I am not at all well versed in how all this stuff works together, someone much smarter than I can probably give you a real good explanation on it all. I'm just putting out the little bits of dumbed down info I've been able to pick up :)

I think pH on its own gets kind of a bad rap. In many cases, it's really the gH and kH (which influences pH) that create the issues. For instance, my water is 8.2pH out of the tap. My kH is through the roof (19ish), which is what drives my pH so high and keeps it there no matter how much driftwood and whatnot I have in my tanks. I can't keep cardinals alive in my tanks for more than a few months, but a friend (on a different water source) has been very successful at keeping them in his 8.4pH tank. The difference is that his kH is 3 vs. my 19. You always hear about them being acidic water fish, but when you really read up on it, the issue is more the high kH that usually (but not always) accompanies high pH water - which fits our little real world example. On the flip side, I've actually had to start adding a gH supplement to my water for my shrimp because despite the ridiculously high pH and kH, my gH is extremely low. I wasn't really losing many shrimp to it, but I will say my populations seem a lot healthier and seem to be increasing faster now that I've made that adjustment.

So all that to say, it is unlikely your pH is directly the issue with your shrimp - but the lower gH and kH that often accompany more acidic water may well be.
Thank you for this as well. I hope to continue this conversation with all you shrimp experts this Thursday night once I post my GH and KH results. I want to see what I can do to keep them alive, even if it's dosing. If I don't dose and accommodate, I'd like a way to keep shrimp. Snails died though which is kind of weird. I'm wondering if it also has anything to do with it.
 

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For as much emphasis as we're (myself strongly included here) putting on those kH and gH results, I don't think they are what caused your large losses in 3 days - especially considering you had snail deaths too. Those are things you need to know before venturing forward, but my gut says something else happened. Granted, I'm far from being an expert here...

Did you add any new plants or anything around that time frame? I wiped out a tank full of shrimp plus a few snails within a day once by adding some plants from petco where they had (unknowingly to me) treated their plant tanks to keep pest snails from taking over. The same chemicals (copper specifically) that are detrimental to snails will kill shrimp - and there was enough of it on those few crypts I brought in to take down my tank. Fish were perfectly fine, just the inverts. Just using that to say, it doesn't take much. I wouldn't expect cleaners or air fresheners or anything along those lines simply because your tanks were both affected and are in totally different locations, but would still suspect some sort of contaminant. Were the losses both following the water changes? If so, any chance there was something on your hands or in the container you used to add the water or... Basically, I'd be looking really hard at what the common denominators might be between the tanks in the days surrounding the deaths, and go from there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
For as much emphasis as we're (myself strongly included here) putting on those kH and gH results, I don't think they are what caused your large losses in 3 days - especially considering you had snail deaths too. Those are things you need to know before venturing forward, but my gut says something else happened. Granted, I'm far from being an expert here...

Did you add any new plants or anything around that time frame? I wiped out a tank full of shrimp plus a few snails within a day once by adding some plants from petco where they had (unknowingly to me) treated their plant tanks to keep pest snails from taking over. The same chemicals (copper specifically) that are detrimental to snails will kill shrimp - and there was enough of it on those few crypts I brought in to take down my tank. Fish were perfectly fine, just the inverts. Just using that to say, it doesn't take much. I wouldn't expect cleaners or air fresheners or anything along those lines simply because your tanks were both affected and are in totally different locations, but would still suspect some sort of contaminant. Were the losses both following the water changes? If so, any chance there was something on your hands or in the container you used to add the water or... Basically, I'd be looking really hard at what the common denominators might be between the tanks in the days surrounding the deaths, and go from there.
No new plants, except some downoi (form the same guy that has the same shrimp in their same tank) Do that can be thrown out the window.

Before that I put some Crypts from petsmart, but they were from the bags that people were getting plants from -- I did dip them in excel but washed it off about 15 mins later with aquarium water.

Hands were always clear of oil, etc. Though I don't know 100% for sure, fish are not stressed. Snails honestly I have no idea -- the ONLY thing that I suspected that was the problem was when my original 2 shrimp from my work tank went in I did some cleanup work on the tank. Disturbed some of the substrate and they started going stiff and floating around. Then like a twich they would move their tail to get away quickly (from what i don't know).

Other than that, I don't know -- I will re-test the water all at once on Thursday -- ahh well. I can only shrug right now as to what the main problem is.

Anyone know if Kordon Amquel (not plus) will do any harm?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I think I found my issue with the shrimp death --
Neodymium Magnets -- Rare Earth Magnets. THey turned all black in the morning, I also found that they leech iron and COPPER!

I'm glad that the fish didn't die, but i'm sure i'm probably going through a 2nd cycle now that it's like that.

I'm going to wait a bit, and find aquarium safe magnets then attempt to do this again. Will be getting testers still to verify the water parameters. Will update tomorrow night!
 
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