[pianofish]

Hi everyone,


So I have a 60 gallon display tank that I'm working on setting up. Dimensions are (36" L X 19" W X 20" H). (yes it was custom built). When I purchased it, it just looked so good, I got its twin brother for the sump. So I have a 60 gallon display tank with a 60 gallon sump both the same size. Will be doing a bean animal overflow.

Here are my goals for this sump.
-Fantastic mechanical filtration
-Fantastic Bio filtration
-Auto Top Off
- 20-30 gallon refugium for fry grow out
-Store all equipment (heater, co2 reactor, fertilizor auto doser)




I will be posting a few ms paint drawings of possible sump setups that I would like some advice on critiqueing.


A few questions:


1. Can I achieve just as good, or at least really close bio filtration by having like 10-20 gallons of bio media,( was thinking marinePure media) or is wet/dry really that much better? I would like to have a school of 30-40 small tetras and 30-40 corys in the 60 gallon display.


2. Would you reccomend all of the filter flow through the refugium, or should I branch off some of the flow from the tank and have the refugium dump into the sump? (This will be better illustrated in my paint drawing).


3. Can anyone think of a way to setup a wet/dry and a refugium all in the same sump?




Thanks
Joshua

 

[markisashrimp]

I'm following along in case I can get some ideas

 

[pianofish]

Here is my first ammateur design, let me know what you think. Improvements, flaws, etc.

My main goal is to have maximum filtration/co2, and if possible I'd like to implement a refugium for shrimp/ fry grow out.

In this diagram, the main bean animal siphon tube would T and a ball valve would control flow into the refugium. The flow would be very minimal, Maybe 100GPH. That way the rest of the flow 500-600GPH would go through the whole sump.



Thanks again,
Joshua

 

[AaronT]

Why not just enlarge the area where the main inlets come in and have that be the refugium? I doubt the extra flow would bother any fry too much.

It seems you don't really have a lot of actual filtration for such a large sump. The wet / dry definitely makes a difference in effectiveness because the bio media is exposed to so much air exchange, but it does make it trickier to minimize CO2 gas off. Everything is a trade off.

 

[ngrubich]

Why not use a filter sock for the water coming into the sump?

 

[Dr Fishbait]

Hey Josh, nice design to try. Only thing I can see is that the water going into your refugium isn't getting filtered much. How about using a HMF design ( with a medium Poret foam), with the inlet flowing through it into the refugium. Besides filtering, your shrimp and/or fry will love eating all the stuff that will inhabit it. I've seen where you can have the HMF be just in a corner so it won't take up too much space. But again what do I know! Easy to be an armchair quarterback!!!

 

[pianofish]

Why not just enlarge the area where the main inlets come in and have that be the refugium? I doubt the extra flow would bother any fry too much.

It seems you don't really have a lot of actual filtration for such a large sump. The wet / dry definitely makes a difference in effectiveness because the bio media is exposed to so much air exchange, but it does make it trickier to minimize CO2 gas off. Everything is a trade off.

So basically you are saying put the refugium in the front, so that all of the water in the system gets filtered the same?

I wonder could I put the refugium where the water enters, and put a wet/dry filter after the refugium?

The only problem I would forsee with this design, is that I wouldn't have very much water volume in the tank for evaporation.

If I change the refugium to the front, and just add 10 more gallons of bio media, would that help? I guess I would like this system to be as quiet as possible, and I've heard trickle wet drys can be noisy. I wouldn't mind doing a wet/dry, i just really would like a refugium if possible.

Why not use a filter sock for the water coming into the sump?

I'm not into changing socks out every 3 days, I want a more set and forget kind of filtration.

Hey Josh, nice design to try. Only thing I can see is that the water going into your refugium isn't getting filtered much. How about using a HMF design ( with a medium Poret foam), with the inlet flowing through it into the refugium. Besides filtering, your shrimp and/or fry will love eating all the stuff that will inhabit it. I've seen where you can have the HMF be just in a corner so it won't take up too much space. But again what do I know! Easy to be an armchair quarterback!!!

Thats an interesting design, Its similar to the first part of my drawing, but with less glass. Hm... I'll look into it more.







What do you guys think is more important in a high light/ co2 enriched tank:

More bio?
More mechanical?
Wet/Dry?


Is it not possible to achieve similar results to a wet/dry, by just adding more submersed media?

I'll redo my sump design and repost a few different configs.

Thanks again for the replies,
Joshua

 

[AaronT]

Having filter socks isn't a bad idea actually. Nothing is set and forget, but if you use the socks you pretty much never have to clean the biomedia, which is a nice trade off. The foam pads will protect it some, but not nearly as much as filter socks.

I'm using only poret foam in my wet dry right now. The pre filter in the overflow box is 0 ppi, then 4" of 20 ppi and 2" of 30 ppi. I tried to "set and forget" it for 6 months (cleaning the prefilter of course) and when I finally did clean it the 30 ppi foam was absolutely caked with mulm. It took a half hour with the garden hose to get it to run clear.

 

[pianofish]

Having filter socks isn't a bad idea actually. Nothing is set and forget, but if you use the socks you pretty much never have to clean the biomedia, which is a nice trade off. The foam pads will protect it some, but not nearly as much as filter socks.

I'm using only poret foam in my wet dry right now. The pre filter in the overflow box is 0 ppi, then 4" of 20 ppi and 2" of 30 ppi. I tried to "set and forget" it for 6 months (cleaning the prefilter of course) and when I finally did clean it the 30 ppi foam was absolutely caked with mulm. It took a half hour with the garden hose to get it to run clear.

I guess I'm confused at your filter sock logic, change something out every week, or change something out every several weeks/months if I don't use filter socks?

After thinking it over, I may just go full wet/dry setup with no refugium. Refugium's are cool, but at the same time, I feel like I'll have plenty enough to worry about with the 60 gallons on top that I won't really have a want for one. If I do, I can always setup a smaller tank and close loop it into the system later.

So if I'm going full wet/dry setup, what is the best way to utilize a wet/dry setup with a bean animal overflow to minimalize co2 loss?

Joshua

 

[93145]

I am loving the idea Pianofish,

When looking at your drawing I would personally have the full siphon going into your area to be filtered so that the majority of your water is prepped for the display tank and just pipe the standpipe directly to the refugium portion. Water flows to the path of least resistance and I think if you split your standpipe return as pictured the refugium would see almost nothing.

Less flow to disturb anything in that section, less possible waste to infect the main tank.

I like Dr.fishbait's idea seems perfect as well.

Just my .02, good luck!

 

[xmas_one]

Kind of a waste of a tank IMO. Why don't you just use a 20 long for a sump? You're also going to have to have an oversized footprint of a stand if you use a sump of the same dimensions as your DT.

 

[Dr Fishbait]

Josh, I did some research, check out SwissTropicals for the Poret foam corner HMFs . They can customize them to your non standard tank. I also just received some MarinePure bio media ( the spheres). Looking forward to see if they are as good as they claim.

 

[pianofish]

Hmm. I have an idea that I just thought of that might work better. I'll post it later today. The whole reason behind the big tank was that I wanted a refugium. I'm gonna post one last design before calling the refugium idea quits. I know that there are huge benefits of having a wet/dry filter, but I think that if a 90 gallon fish tank can be run off of a couple of canister filters, then why should'nt 20-30 gallons of submerged sump be enough to filter my tank and refugium?

 

[ForensicFish]

Pianofish,

I am in the process of completing my own DIY sump built out of 20 gal long. I have inlet filter area, refugium for shrimp and fry and then finally a section for my return pump. If you can hold on for a few hours when I get off work I can post some photos to show you.

In my opinion, a sump for a planted tank should be simple. I respect those that build an extremely complicated sump design with 3 hoses/pipes, ball valves, bean animals, all these sections or areas, but I do not feel the need to do so. All that makes for more maintenance in my opinion. I have a simple inlet, outlet and sump design. The filtration will be more than adequate in my opinion and i even have the option of using a filer sock or blue pads for mechanical. As far as biological filtration is concerned, it is a planted tank. If you keep up on small water changes, do not over feed and rinse out dirty filters/pads every so often you will be just fine. Planted tanks need some nitrates compared to reefs that should be void of them. I would know, I have both.

 

[pianofish]

I can even put more bio media going towards the return pump as well.
I figure, this would give me around a 15 gallon refuge, and also keep everything together in one shot. I will have autotop off on this system, and eventually would like to do drill a runoff hole in the sump for auto drip/ water changes.


What say you?
Joshua

 

[ForensicFish]

keep in mind your water levels should not exceed the amount of water that will drain out of the main tank in event of a power failure.

I also agree with some of the other members that it would benefit you to filter the water before it hits the refugium. All your bio media would have minimal effect if the majority of the detritus, mulm etc. gathers in the refugium and never makes it to your mechanical filters.

I sectioned off a corner of my sump tank with silicone and acrylic to filter the water from the inlet. Then I simply will put another foam pad behind the return pump wall.

 

[pianofish]

So if we treat the refugium as "A", the filter area as "B" and the return/auto top off/ co2 reactor area as "C". Lets try some configurations.

If I did BAC with a coarse filter pad in between the return pump area and the refugium, would that work?

 

[ForensicFish]

I think it would benefit you to treat the filter area as "A", refugium as "B" and return pump as "C". Just remember to put a filter pad between the refugium and return to prevent fry and shrimp from being shredded and to prevent any un-caught crap from clogging your return pump.

pics are coming soon.

 

[pianofish]

Priority wise, I agree with you, I just meant a labeling system so I didn't have to type the words as much haha. So with your labels, I would do the setup as ABC with a filter pad inbetween the return pump area and the refuge.

 

[dprais1]

my critique?

way too complicated. use this design http://www.swisstropicals.com/wp_site/wp-content/uploads/Sump-layout.pdf

use a fine poret size far left then a coarse next to it. on the right side use a fine pore size then a coarse.

use 2" for the fine size and 4" for the coarse. all that space in the middle just became your refugium.

fry will be totally fine. I know because I have a ton of assorted rainbow fish fry in my sump.

that black foam will need to be cleaned regularly and it will collect a lot of junk. this is a pain if your sump is not easily accessible, so make sure you have easy clearance to maintain the filter. the coarse can be cleaned every couple months. they claim it only needs to be cleaned yearly--don't believe it.

the foam will be able to house enough bacteria for for a truely giant tank that is overstocked.

my sump has 1 4" coarse and 1 2" fine. it also has 2 1" thick mattala(?) type sheets(which I don't recommend). I have 25 adult rainbow fish, 20+ juvenile rainbow fish, 60-80 fry, 8 dwarf corys, 6 regular cories, and a BN pleco.

as long as I do waterchanges and clean the black foam my water is clear and my tank is clean.