[Immortal1]

Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.

 

[Xiaozhuang]

Might be why your pantanal died.

1 ppm 3x week is not a hard ceiling for me. But bad things start happening around 2.5-3 ppm. Again, this is somehow related to uber low micros and inert substrate.

Plants dont need near that much in the first place. If a tank requires more than say, EI levels, it's because the PO4 is overcoming something else. Not because the plants are eating it all up.

But you know, who cares why something works? If it works, it works.

Dennis Wong ( @Xiaozhuang ) doses almost complete opposite of what I do. Very low N, something like 5-10 ppm PO4, and very high traces/Fe, not sure the exact amount but it's more than EI.

Blows my mind! He also uses a lot of dirt based substrates capped with sand or something, if Im not mistaken.

Point is, results are all that matters, not the whys or hows of it.

Personally I dont even care about all this chemistry and the particulars of everything. But Im forced to learn more about it, out of necessity.

I'd be straight just knowing how much of what to dump in there so I can get on with the fun stuff like pruning and scaping!

I think the most important point demonstrated in this thread is the ability to adjust variables, then interpret plant reaction to those changes to see if increasing or decreasing parameters delivers better results ... if more people followed this methodology (which takes more effort) than just following fixed ratios recommendations on the net, many problems can be solved, tanks will be more optimized on an individual basis. And the thing is we don't really need to be a chemistry/biologist wizard to do this ; we just have to develop sensitivity to our plant health.

Due to the complexities of water chemistry interactions, choice of substrate, plant uptake etc... I think far too many hobbyists expect tanks to function in a similar manner whereas they can be quite different. And this applies to things like algae as well. As much as I'm a fan of Barr; and some principles can be universalized more than others..... Far too many people find success with one method, and try to bend others to the one method that did work for them. I think we should generally encourage more experimentation with observation, and also acceptance that there are many routes to success

 

[PEdwards]

Fascinating stuff, Phil. Thank you!

That probably explains why my tank doesnt do well with very high P04 levels either, due to binding or precipitation or whatever.

My understanding of chemistry is rudimentary at best, so bear with me if I dont put things in the right terms exactly.

I can induce a brutal, and rapid Fe deficiency dosing say 2.5 -3 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week. And here's the kicker, adding more Fe/micros doesnt solve the problem, because other toxicity symptoms show up first.

As long as PO4 dosing stays in the .5 - 1 ppm range, everything is groovy.

Another thing Ive wondered about, maybe you can shed some light. What is the end result when PO4 combines with trace metals? Could this end result be a toxic compound? A compound which might be easily ab/adsorbed in a high cec sub, but just stays loose in the water column in mine?

That might explain why my tanks absolutely do not like higher levels of micros. Not because the micros themselves are toxic, but rather due to a wonky by-product?

Because I mean, study after study shows that the levels of micros Im working with are a LONG way from reaching toxic levels. Yet here we are.

Does any of that sound logical to you?

Burrito,

That's an interesting phenomenon and one that I hadn't really heard of before. I'm going to go off on a tangent before getting back to what you're seeing going on in your tank.

Fe 3+ isn't soluble in water, that's why it's bound to EDTA. Fe 2+ IS soluble in water, but will quickly get oxidized into the 3+ form in the water column, that's why it's bound to Gluconate. I'm not sure which form is bound to DPTA. The same goes for Manganese, it's attached to a chelator in CSM, and I assume most other trace blends/solutions.

What does this mean? First off, it means that the plants are going to get at the iron before other chemical species do due to the chelation of Fe. Secondly, if an Fe breaks free of its chelator and goes free into the water column then it's going to hit the 3+ oxidation state and settle out of the water.

Twist your pickle time: Yes, it's possible for PO4 3- and Fe 3+ to bind together into FePO4, but we have to consider overall concentrations of each in the system. Burr, in your tank you've got what most would consider low concentrations of both. Even though the water's mixing pretty well, the probability of significant amounts of FePO4 formation is fairly low in my opinion. I'm not saying it's impossible, only improbable on any significant scale. I'd have to find the reaction kinetics under different conditions to give any sort of certain answer.

My mental train is going in the direction of intermittent flushes of greater amounts of nutrients in the wild. Perhaps nutrients are very low during the dry season, but as soon as it rains all sorts of stuff gets washed into the stream/river and you get a sudden increase in nutrients. Aquatic plants in general have adapted to such environmental changes, within individual species' range of tolerance.

Combining both trains of thought; increasing PO4 could potentially increase the amount of binding with Fe, causing a problematic lack of iron given how low your traces are. However, that should go away in a couple of days as the plants take up the PO4 and you continue to add traces. On top of that, the plants should be able to deal with the increased PO4.

**Caveat** I'm an aquatic plant ecologist and biogeochemist, not an aquatic plant biologist or biochemist so I have to admit limitation of knowledge regarding toxicity, most biochemical reactions not gone over in general plant physiology and the limited scope of my thesis regarding nutrient uptake rather than environmental factors affecting availability. Also, the nutrient flush idea is based solely on my experience with N. American plants and envrionments, not those of other regions.

So what the $$&*(^#$*&#@^ goes on in your tank when you jack the PO4 up? Are you 100% positive it's toxicity? Have one of the intelligentsia over on the other forum confirmed it's toxicity? Clearly there's something going on, I don't doubt your word. The persistence of problems after the higher dose have me puzzled. FePO4 isn't terribly toxic in aquatic environments. In fact, many aquatic plants have a sheathe of FePO4, among other things, on their roots to help provide nutrients and guard against toxins. I would hesitate to say that possible presence of FePO4 or MnPO4 is causing an issue.

You said something about "inducing a brutal and rapid" Fe deficiency by adding more PO4. Consider this; you've got your system in a state of (knife's edge) equilibrium and it's doing well as long as nothing changes. I mean, I think you're running a very very narrow line with this tank as far as the ecosystem goes. If 1-2 ppm of extra PO4 causes such extreme and rapid issues after one dose you're a sneeze away from a crash, IMO. Then again, you're also "doing it right".

Here are my thoughts based on the above context; with all the light you've got there's the potential for more growth if more nutrients are added. I'm going to guess that you've found that sweet spot between sustaining growth and limiting growth due to nutrient limitation. Perhaps you're already limiting growth relative to what your system can sustain, by limiting traces. 0.5 - 1.0 ppm with your lighting and CO2 is pretty low. I wouldn't be surprised if the plants sucked up the extra quickly. By adding that extra PO4 it's possibly that you stimulate growth enough that the plants suddenly take up all the available traces and are wanting more...but there isn't any so they start scavenging themselves, etc. Even if you go back to your previous PO4 dose, the plants still have taken up some extra relative to what they had before and can use that for a couple days to try to fuel increased growth stimulated by the initial flood.

Thinking on it a bit more, didn't you say you keep NO3 at about 6ppm? That would put your NO3 to PO4 somewhere in the 5:1 to 10:1 NO3O4 ratio that seems to be golden. BUT, again, those are pretty low numbers given the light you've got.

All that makes me think that your whole system is, again, right on the cusp of having limited growth relative to light input due to low nutrients, without having deficiencies. Screwing with that uber fine balance could royally [censored][censored][censored][censored] your system over. It's the same concept of reefers running Ultra Low Nutrient Systems; it works until some little thing upsets the delicate balance and the whole system goes to hell.

What do your symptoms look like after the slug of extra PO4? Do they look like deficiencies? That would be my first guess based on the reasoning above. I could be wrong though; a plant biochemist would be able to speak more cogently on this topic than I, the humble ecologist taking SWAGs.

Cheers,
Phil

Bump:

Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.

Burr must be finger scraping good.

 

[Dempsey]

I had pantanal growing great in my tank for a while before the "crash"(neglect). I need to give it a try again. Let me know if you will be selling any or where you got yours.

 

[burr740]

What do your symptoms look like after the slug of extra PO4? Do they look like deficiencies? That would be my first guess based on the reasoning above.

First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain all that and share your thoughts on the subject. I really appreciate it!

You mentioned me having low CO2. That's not really the case. PH has dropped a full point by the time lights come on. Couple hours later it's down close to 1.3, where it remains for the duration.

I have also ran it a couple tenths higher for months at a time. But I feel like this level should be plenty. Plants are pearling within a couple hours, and by the end of the photo period it looks like an upside down monsoon in there.

I agree with the logic that nutrients are somehow limited, especially micros/Fe, and that kicking up the PO4 causes plants to need more of the other stuff, hence the deficiency symptoms.

But being logical is where it stops. If you recall, I pointed out that adding more micros/Fe fails to solve the issue, because other <apparent> toxicity symptoms show up.

So if was just a matter of creating a new deficiency, adding more of the other should help. However, it does not.

As to the quoted part; What happens is a rapid paling of new growth, less than a week usually, followed by a downright melt of said growth if i let it go on..

And it's not just the sensitive species either. Normally tough plants like Blyxa japonica, Downoi and S repens suddenly become afflicted as well.


What I think I know:

Things here are entirely dependent on what's in the water column, aside from the stray Osmocote+ ball here and there.

There's no CEC drawing micros out of the water, or anything else.

What this means is I have to nail the amounts and ratios of everything because there's no wiggle room.

Also means that certain nutrients....cannot simply be "larded on" and forgot about......Contrary to a few popular opinions.

So yeah it's a delicate balance. I feel like Im fairly close to having it nailed though. Because 90% of everything I try to grow does well, 90% of the time.

That wasnt always the case. It's been a long and arduous road getting to this point. At the same time it's been a very fun road too!

These days it's all about getting that other 10%. That is what confounds me now. So I just keep tweaking and trying various things to see what works and what doesnt.

What I've also learned, shocking to many folks including myself, is that plants need very little in the way of micros/Fe to thrive. Not merely to survive, but thrive.

That's not to say most tanks dont need more to operate, a lot more in some cases, but the plants themselves need very little.

Vin's Rotala Kill Tank , where he mirrored my dosing routine with plain gravel backs this up as well.

Also noteworthy is he recently applied the same dosing to his 180 gal Dutch Tank. which has ADA Aquasoil. Things were OK for about a month, but then it went south as deficiencies popped up.


Phil, thanks once again for sharing your thoughts here. I'll have to reread all that to get a better understanding of some things. But it's already helped me understand more what happens to chelates and such.

It may not have solved anything, but it explains a lot of my "what ifs" which is just as good. Knowing what something isnt takes one closer to what it is!

 

[burr740]

Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.

It's funny, when I feed the fish there's probably some traces of food left on my finger. Amanos have long antennae, whatever you call it, two or three inches long.

After feeding the fish, I can ease my hand up close to the shrimp, stopping just short of the antennae to give it a chance to sense what's in front of it.

Then using it's antennae, it'll tap my finger a few times and then hop aboard and start picking around.

I had pantanal growing great in my tank for a while before the "crash"(neglect). I need to give it a try again. Let me know if you will be selling any or where you got yours.

So far I havent grown any that's fit for the sale block, and Im not holding my breath for this batch.

Try user Bartohog, or his son sjb1987. Those guys usually have some for sale.

 

[BayazGouramiz]

Is that an Amano? Looks like a few of the grandpa's I got. They sure are neat. Thinking of setting up a shrimp tank in my 40B. Its just an Algae farm anyways....

Bump: Oh I see it is.. Nvm I should read I guess.

 

[PEdwards]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain all that and share your thoughts on the subject. I really appreciate it!

You mentioned me having low CO2. That's not really the case. PH has dropped a full point by the time lights come on. Couple hours later it's down close to 1.3, where it remains for the duration.

But being logical is where it stops. If you recall, I pointed out that adding more micros/Fe fails to solve the issue, because other <apparent> toxicity symptoms show up.

So if was just a matter of creating a new deficiency, adding more of the other should help. However, it does not.

As to the quoted part; What happens is a rapid paling of new growth, less than a week usually, followed by a downright melt of said growth if i let it go on..

And it's not just the sensitive species either. Normally tough plants like Blyxa japonica, Downoi and S repens suddenly become afflicted as well.


What I think I know:

Things here are entirely dependent on what's in the water column, aside from the stray Osmocote+ ball here and there.

What this means is I have to nail the amounts and ratios of everything because there's no wiggle room.

Also means that certain nutrients....cannot simply be "larded on" and forgot about......Contrary to a few popular opinions.

So yeah it's a delicate balance.

That's not to say most tanks dont need more to operate, a lot more in some cases, but the plants themselves need very little.

Vin's Rotala Kill Tank , where he mirrored my dosing routine with plain gravel backs this up as well.

Also noteworthy is he recently applied the same dosing to his 180 gal Dutch Tank. which has ADA Aquasoil. Things were OK for about a month, but then it went south as deficiencies popped up.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear, I did ramble a lot up there. I meant that you've got a lot of light and a plenty of CO2. I guess the TL: DR of all my rambling above was you've hit the delicate balance of relatively low nutrients to the high light/CO2 input right on the head for your system. But, like you just said, there's no wiggle room. That's what I meant by being on the knife's edge as far as system balance is concerned. You've got things soooooooo tightly dialed in that small changes can have profound effects. That's what lead me to the deficiency thing and that whole train of thought vs there being a toxicity issue.

All that being said, it very clearly works for you and your system. At this point I'm just throwing out ideas and educated guesses to see if something clicks.

Those symptoms are strange. I can't say I've ever encountered anything like that so I really can't speak to the cause.

I love Vin's thread, it's taught me a lot about Lythracae that I didn't know. Have you asked about potential toxicity issues with higher P dosing over there? I'm sure there's someone with more qualification to speak to toxicity there than I can.

I think at this point, unless we want to get into more detail about substrates and various environmental factors affecting nutrient availability, we've kind of reached the limit of my knowledge/experience. Anything that goes into nutrients and toxicities within the plant would need a botanist or biochemist to discuss. My guess is that would be Tom or Vin. I have no idea what Vin does, but he sounds like he used to do plant science. I could be totally wrong though. LOL

Who's larding nutrients on? I promise I've cut way back!!!

Cheers,
Phil

 

[burr740]

....the deficiency thing and that whole train of thought vs there being a toxicity issue.

That's the most logical explanation, I agree.

But then why doesnt adding more of the newly deficient compound fix the issue?

(recall I mentioned at this point adding more Fe/micros doesnt fix the Fe deficiency, but triggers other, apparent toxicity issues)

The logical answer the second question would be that the next nutrient in short supply now becomes deficient, hence the new symptoms. Think Liebig's barrel

And such may be the case. But the response is usually too fast (matter of days) and too intense to be a simple deficiency. In my mind at least.

But rather than start claiming X amount of this or that is "toxic". Im more interested the why. Why does this happen with such apparently benign dosing?

Hence my questions to you about different compounds binding and all that.

And once again I really appreciate your input!

I love Vin's thread, it's taught me a lot about Lythracae that I didn't know. Have you asked about potential toxicity issues with higher P dosing over there? I'm sure there's someone with more qualification to speak to toxicity there than I can.

Nobody over there has a clue. Tom refuses to even accept the possibility (of micro-tox). Though I really cant blame him. If Id never seen it first hand I probably wouldnt believe it myself.

Vin and have been conversing offline for a couple of years now, frequently. He's as bumfuzzled as anyone why "toxicity" happens for some and not to others, or why my tanks react the way they do.

But I think we're all starting to realize it has a lot to do with inert sub vs a high cec. The exact particulars being still somewhat of a mystery.

I expect him to chime in here pretty soon (when he gets back from the beach! )

Who's larding nutrients on? I promise I've cut way back!!!

Haha, that comment was directed at the hardcore EI crowd, whose basic philosophy is to simply lard on the nutrients, and any problem after that has to be poor CO2.

Seems like a great clique to be in though. I wish I was fortunate enough to believe the same thing!

 

[burr740]

Pic Dump


No problems here, Rotala indica screamin Long hair Dont care!

(was recently told by Cavan that Ammania bonsai is erroneous. Henceforth Im referring to this plant by it's proper name True Rotala indica)

New shoots coming on the Pogo kimberly, need to go ahead and cut the bad tops off.

Rotala wallichii continues to un-stunt :knocksonwood:

Rotala macranda 'variegated'

These were not great to begin with but definitely took a hit. Leaf margins curled under, narrow and distorted, color all over the place

Here's some in the 50 gal. When things are good it does fairly well.

 

[PEdwards]

Tom refuses to even accept the possibility. Though I really cant blame him. If Id never seen it first hand I probably wouldnt believe it myself.

Oh, like all the claims he makes backed up only by pictures? I can see how you being public about doing uber low nutrients and asking why adding more causes issues in your tanks when his fame was built on "larding it on" could be an issue. You're just a regular Joe plant keeper looking for answers. Too bad some folks won't give you the time of day.

You should come to the AGA con at the end of the month.

 

[burr740]

Oh, like all the claims he makes backed up only by pictures? I can see how you being public about doing uber low nutrients and asking why adding more causes issues in your tanks when his fame was built on "larding it on" could be an issue. You're just a regular Joe plant keeper looking for answers. Too bad some folks won't give you the time of day.

Well, it's not exactly like that. I have a journal over there too, and have/do converse with him often in various threads on the subject.

He's a little more open to the possibility these days than say two years ago. Still doesnt think it's micro related. But at least is beginning to acknowledge that everyone experiencing similar issues isnt just a noob who doesnt understand co2.

He had this to say earlier today, as a matter of fact

That's such super touchy trace dosing. I'd suck if my tanks operated like that.

In answer to an observation: the Garage tanks I've started dosing traces.
They have historically done well or a little better with... when I did add them haphazardly.

The main issue I have is when you add more of one potentially limiting factor, you place more demand on something else, Liebig's law predicts this.
So after I do this for say 4 weeks, I'll add some KNO3, KH2PO4 as well.

I've pondered Urea at about 0.5ppm.

The 4th option is to add more fresh ADA AS.

The 4th option is the most consistent and easiest also.

P. kimberly and Red pant, crap, those are insane weeds.
Something is up with that pesky tap.

Did you ever try RO or a blend?

Not long term, but just a few weeks to see?

On the AR vari, the leaves are still slightly wavy in the garage tanks. This is under high light, about what you have.
I have not tried it under lower light yet. Still, normal AR mini looks fairly different in those garage tanks, vs the inside tanks. The AR vari, not so much.

I think it might be a mini form of vari, but then again, I do not know what the normal type looks like for the AR vari either...........not much to compare to. The new side shoots always look nice on all AR varieties near as I can tell.

You got pesky tap, about all I can say. Try the RO and see.
Then there's ADA AS.

(the seemingly unrelated stuff about AR leaves and his garage tanks is sort of on another subject previously discussed elsewhere)

He thinks its an issue with my tap water. And he may very well be right. Although I cant find any likely suspects in the water report, or from the Hanna test results.

Main reason why I dont think it's tap related is because everything is just too good...when it's good.

The ONLY reason I tried more micros 3 weeks ago is to see if it would jump start the pantanal.

You should come to the AGA con at the end of the month.

Where is it? I havent read this quarter's publication yet.

 

[PEdwards]

Denver! Aquatic Gardeners Association Convention

 

[burr740]

In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:

Woke up sweating about 5 AM, and noticed it was unusually hot in the house. Hmm...

Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out. It'll be at least next week sometime before I can get a new one installed..

So mid morning I go to Lowes and buy a small window unit for the back part of the house, where the bedrooms are. Hoping to get by with just that.

By early evening...I accept the fact that one little unit isnt going to cut it because it's 85 freakin degrees in the living room.

So off I go to buy another one to use in the front part of the house, nearby to the tank.

By this time also, the aquarium water feels distinctly warmer than usual, so I tossed in a thermometer to see where it's at. (which I actually thought was 82 until I took the picture and noticed the green ends at 84 and not 80, lol)

I never check the temp or use heaters. The house stays mid to low 70s year round and I dont worry about it.

Currently have a fan blowing across the surface, and the house is finally cooling down....some. So Im hoping this will be adequate until I get a new unit installed next week sometime.

The fish seem fine, but I dont think the Amano shrimp like it much. Ive only caught a glimpse of one all day, usually they're scurrying around all over the place.

Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.

Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting

Guess I should just be glad it happened now instead of mid-August. :icon_eek:

Damn...

 

[clownplanted]

In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:

Woke up sweating about 5 AM, and noticed it was unusually hot in the house. Hmm...

Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out. It'll be at least next week sometime before I can get a new one installed..

So mid morning I go to Lowes and buy a small window unit for the back part of the house, where the bedrooms are. Hoping to get by with just that.

By early evening...I accept the fact that one little unit isnt going to cut it because it's 85 freakin degrees in the living room.

So off I go to buy another one to use in the front part of the house, nearby to the tank.

By this time also, the aquarium water feels distinctly warmer than usual, so I tossed in a thermometer to see where it's at. (which I actually thought was 82 until I took the picture and noticed the green ends at 84 and not 80, lol)

I never check the temp or use heaters. The house stays mid to low 70s year round and I dont worry about it.

Currently have a fan blowing across the surface, and the house is finally cooling down....some. So Im hoping this will be adequate until I get a new unit installed next week sometime.

The fish seem fine, but I dont think the Amano shrimp like it much. Ive only caught a glimpse of one all day, usually they're scurrying around all over the place.

Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.

Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting

Guess I should just be glad it happened now instead of mid-August. :icon_eek:

Damn...

Sorry to hear about the heat issue. Think plants pearl less in warmer water. Also less co2 will be in the water at warmer temperature. Hope all is ok bud. Hang in there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Doc7]

Good luck I hope all works out well for your house and inhabitants as well as the tank!

 

[Ben Belton]

Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out.

Wow... no AC in Alabama. That sucks. Better start selling off some stems to pay for it :grin2:

 

[Greggz]

Burr740 sorry to hear about that. I think you are right about it being better now than in the prime of the summer.

At 86* I would guess you are at the upper end of when things could go downhill quickly. Hopefully it's just a quick blip on the radar and everything stays stable for you.

 

[PEdwards]

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear this. I hope things get resolved soon!

 

[Maryland Guppy]

In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:

Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.

Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting.

Better fill ice cube trays with some "Prime" water and cool her down.