High Head Pumps and Heat Contribution to Tank - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-22-2008, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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Question High Head Pumps and Heat Contribution to Tank

I"ve gotten a 1/2 mazzei 384 ventri injector. I"m going to replace my CO2 reactor with the mazzei.

I've been looking at different pumps all day and finding out a lot, but not enough.

For example I have found a lot of references to Posieden Pumps adding 4-6 degrees F to the tank. But they are darned quiet.

I can't afford 4-6 degree F, or else I would spring the bucks and buy one of these babies. My tank is in my living room after all. But my tank temp hovers at 78-80 (76-78 lights off) and I don't want to drive it higher. My house isn't particularly warm, but I am not an AC hog. I keep my house around 74 in the summer, so current tank temp is just from the cannister pumps and lighting.

I know I need between 500-900 gph and as much head as I can get in the pump. I need least amount of added heat. And quiet as possible.

But I can't find info on the heat factor for any of these other brands of pumps. Also can't find info on noise decibels. Those would be really great specs of pump manufacturers to add.

Here is what I've got so far:
stats are
model, gph, inlet diameter, outlet diameter, head, wattage, size, notes

Danner
Mag Drive Supreme 5
500 GPH 1/2" 1/2" 10.5' 45 Watts
Mag-Drive Supreme 7
700 GPH 1/2" 1/2" 12.5' 70 Watts 5.0" x 3.8" x 4.2"
Mag-Drive Supreme 9.5
950 GPH 3/4" 3/4" 14' 93 Watts 5.0" x 3.0" x 5.5"

Eheim 1260
635 gph 1" 3/4" 12'1" 65W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"
Eheim 1262
900 gph 1" 3/4" 11'6" 80W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"

Quiet One 3000
780 gph 1" 1" 10.50' 40W 4.25" x 3.75" x 4"
< 45 decibels
Quiet One 4000
980 gph 1" " 13' 50W 6.25" x 4.25" x 5.25"
50 Watts or 120 Watts? (120v/60hz) .79 amps

Iwaki with american motored (does not come with power cord)
IK1225 540 gph 1" 1" 8.2 11" x 3.5" x 4.9" .42 amps
IK1233 510 gph 3/4" 3/4" 17.7 11.9" x 3.5" x 4.7" 1.0 amps
IK1235 960 gph 1" 1" 13.5 12.1" x 3.5" x 5" 1.0 amps
IK1243 750 gph 3/4" 3/4" 21.3 11" x 4.4" x 4.75" 1.9 amps

Poseideon
ps2 650 gph 3/4" 3/4" >25 ft 98 Watts
ps3 800 gph 3/4" 3/4" >25 ft 140 watts
<30db normal for pump to increase the water temp by 46F

Panworld (Iwaki knockoff and comes with power cord)
50PX 590gph 3/4" 3/4" 16.5' 90W 10"x4"x5"
100PX 790gph 3/4" 3/4" 21' 120W 10.5"x4"x5.5"
Quieter than iwaki equivalents 30RLt and 40 RLT

notes by users say the Poseideons seem to be quietest of all, but definitely add 4-6 degree F to water. QuietOne pumps are next quiest, but unknown about tank temp. I saw one mention of Eheims not adding noticeable to tank temp. Saw several notes of Eheims being quieter than Mags.

What is your anecdotal or actual measured experience of tank heating and noise levels with any of these pumps?

~ Kayakbabe
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-22-2008, 12:31 PM
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I believe the tank temp issue really depends if you are using them as submersible or inline. I can't see why an inline pump would drive the heat up that much and it doesn't sound like you are using a sump, so heat shouldn't be an issue, but lets see if some others have this problem. However, I have heard that the quietone pumps, even in submersible applications, has very little heat exchange.

You state you are looking for as much head as possible, but what really is the head requirement you need?
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-22-2008, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Heat is a very important consideration for me. A couple of degrees more will kill some tank inhabitants and be hard of some of my plants which I'm at the top limit of their range anyway.

I think any of these pumps would actually work, but the pump will be out of the tank and plumped in line. Actually, if the pumps were submerged I"m guessing that heat contribution would be even higher because they are being 100% water cooled instead of partially air cooled.

The head requirement for the injector is "as much as possible" according to the mazzei users in responses to me, posted here on planted tank, barr report, aquatic plant central, etc.. Mazzei engineers state the same thing if you can get them to talk in plain english. The more back pressure a pump can handle and keep pumping the better, because you want to force the water through the injector. So... a higher head means a pump can keep pumping against back pressure.

The minimum requirement for the mazzei is a 20% pressure differential from input to output, the higher the pressure differential the more complete the mixing of the injected substance. 50% is a great goal. So again, higher flow and higher head pumps are desireable. So within the flow ranges I think are doable for my situation... I probably won't achieve 50%, but I"m not doing rocket science and I don't want my tank swirling like a toilet bowl. I plan on letting the pump circulate 100%of the time. The constraints on pump selection are heat contribution, and noise.

My caution arose when I saw the 4-6 degree addition by the PS2 and PS3 pumps and also mention of heat contribution regarding other pumps. But no mention of how much they actually affected the temp. I'd like to know what people's experiences are with their pumps and heat input due to the pumps.

~ Kayakbabe
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-22-2008, 04:55 PM
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http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...7&pcatid=14677
here is the pump that i'm going to get the work great last long and there low wattage 650gph with 38watts
and from what ive herd there quiet
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-22-2008, 11:07 PM
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Hi Kayakbabe,

I have owned all but one of the pumps on your list so here is my opinion on them and my opinion on pumps on your list in general.

First of all, external pumps that are fan cooled are cooler than air/water cooled pumps of the same GPH, if you can even find an air/water cooled pump that will achieve the same head requirements.

Second, fan cooled pumps are loud (the fan itself is), where as air/water cooled may not be. If you already have noise such as fans blowing on your lights, then the added noise level of the fan cooled pump may not be as noticable. Lots of noise in general with a reef tank for example, is why reefers may say that they don't notice their Iwaki 70 being "overly" loud. However, some pumps vibrate more than others which can add quite a bit to the noise level.

Third, the bigger the volume of water that a pump is run on will generally relate directly to how much the water temperature is effected, so you may want to pay close attention to what size system I write that each pump was run on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayakbabe View Post
Danner
Mag Drive Supreme 5
500 GPH 1/2" 1/2" 10.5' 45 Watts
Mag-Drive Supreme 7
700 GPH 1/2" 1/2" 12.5' 70 Watts 5.0" x 3.8" x 4.2"
Mag-Drive Supreme 9.5
950 GPH 3/4" 3/4" 14' 93 Watts 5.0" x 3.0" x 5.5"
The Mag 7 is notorius for locking notorius for locking up after power is cut off and then on. The one that I had did this. It also vibrated (increased noise) and added about 2 degrees to my 58 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump. IMO this make of pump has inconsitent quality, I will not own another. Now, keep in mind that a zillion of these have been sold over the years for aquariums and ponds both, and some on the boards have reported they have had good luck with them, but I have found that the majority of reef people who have run them eventually look to change to another brand.

Eheim 1260
635 gph 1" 3/4" 12'1" 65W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"
Eheim 1262
900 gph 1" 3/4" 11'6" 80W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"


Good quality pump with low noise level. I run this on my 180 gallon with 50 gallon sump and have noticed no additional heat. Don't know without further research if this pump will give you the results you are looking for with the injector.

Quiet One 3000
780 gph 1" 1" 10.50' 40W 4.25" x 3.75" x 4"
< 45 decibels
Quiet One 4000
980 gph 1" " 13' 50W 6.25" x 4.25" x 5.25"
50 Watts or 120 Watts? (120v/60hz) .79 amps


Never owned one but have read countless posts of people unhappy with the noise level, as well as the quality of the pump in general.

Iwaki with american motored (does not come with power cord)
IK1225 540 gph 1" 1" 8.2 11" x 3.5" x 4.9" .42 amps
IK1233 510 gph 3/4" 3/4" 17.7 11.9" x 3.5" x 4.7" 1.0 amps
IK1235 960 gph 1" 1" 13.5 12.1" x 3.5" x 5" 1.0 amps
IK1243 750 gph 3/4" 3/4" 21.3 11" x 4.4" x 4.75" 1.9 amps


Famous external pump that many large tank owners would not trade for any other pump. I would not recommend this pump for a small system due to high heat and noise levels, and in fact, would not recommend to anyone unless they have a way to deal with the heat of the larger Iwakis. I ran an Iwaki 100 on my double beckett skimmer and it increased the water temp of my 180/50 by about 4 degrees.

Poseideon
ps2 650 gph 3/4" 3/4" >25 ft 98 Watts
ps3 800 gph 3/4" 3/4" >25 ft 140 watts
<30db normal for pump to increase the water temp by 46F


This is the return pump I run now on my 180/50 planted tank. Very good quality pump and quite powerful. Noise level is practically zero. Heat transfer.....2 to 3 degrees on my system. This pump is an external, but has no fan (this is the main reason for the low noise level), it is water cooled.

Panworld (Iwaki knockoff and comes with power cord)
50PX 590gph 3/4" 3/4" 16.5' 90W 10"x4"x5"
100PX 790gph 3/4" 3/4" 21' 120W 10.5"x4"x5.5"
Quieter than iwaki equivalents 30RLt and 40 RLT


I have run both a 100PX and the biggest one they make (equal to an Iwaki100) and was dissapointed with the quality. The 100PX is very good on heat transfer (at most 1 degree on my system), but the vibration and fan noise are really bad. I did a fan modification that I read about on Reef Central and this did help the fan noise itself, but the vibration caused a hum in everything it touched. Talked to the head PanWorld USA guy and got the typical "you are the first person I have heard of with this problem"

I am currently running an Oceanrunner (what nate linked to) for my CO2 and have been very happy with it. Very low noise level and no heat increase on my 180/50 system. Again however, without doing more research I don't know if this pump will have the head to do what you are looking for.

You also may want to look at the Sen pumps too. I haven't owned one but the majority of those that have seem to be happy with them.

...that's all the typing I can do in one sitting, but I would be happy to help you with any further questions or anything I may have left out.
Steve
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:25 AM Thread Starter
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Steve,
I kept looking for more info and that issue you spoke of with the Mags not restarting themselves after a power outage seems rampant.
That's funny about the Queit ones not being so quiet.

You're input is very valuable. Thank you.



The Poseidoeon pumps just keep getting great kudos. Wish heat wasn't an issue for me. But it would be silly to put a chiller on a tank so that I could run a pump. LOL.

I would probalby go Iwaki if I had a larger tank and heat wasn't an issue too. You've confirmed all the positive comments about them.

Looks like I need to research more on the
Eheim
and look into the
Oceanrunner and Sen pumps.

Now I"ll go hunt more info on these:
Eheim 1260
635 gph 1" 3/4" 12'1" 65W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"
Eheim 1262
900 gph 1" 3/4" 11'6" 80W 8.6"x4.6"x6.3"
Ocean Runner
3500 900 gph 1" 3/4" 10.5 ft 65 Watts

I can not seem to find links to Sen pumps (I can only find parts, are they made anymore?)
Do you have one?

~ Kayakbabe
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:41 AM Thread Starter
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Ah found Sen 700 and 900 info..

Sen 700
760 Gph 3/4 and 1/2 i/o adapters available
17 ft head 72 Watts
Sen 900
1045 Gph 1" or 3/4 input 3/4 output adapters available
15 ft head 98 Watts

~ Kayakbabe
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 04:06 AM Thread Starter
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Found lots more reef keeper reports on Quiet One pumps adding significant heat to their tanks.

~ Kayakbabe
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 04:14 AM
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how much and doses this really mader that much, won't you heater keep your tank at the right temp???

didn't try to make it sound naggy
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 05:08 AM Thread Starter
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Nate, Actually it matters a lot. You're not naggy, but I did explain why it matters.
if you read the first post.. I don't even use a heater... I don't have too and my water it at 78-82 degrees.

I do not want to add any more heat. Lots of pumps add heat to the water that goes through them. So that is why I"m shopping for one that doesn't (as much as possible anyway.)

~ Kayakbabe
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 05:13 AM
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oh sorry i dont think it would matter for my tank then. right?
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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Nate each situation is different. If you have a heater in your tank, and it never turns on... well then your situation might be like mine. But if you have a heater and it does turn on, then obviously your tank needs a heater.

Also pm'd Nate to suggest he start a new topic about his specific situation

~ Kayakbabe
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:17 PM
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FWIW, just as a point of reference, you COULD add a chiller to your system. Not cost effective at all, but this is an option for those who are viewing this post with interest.


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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-23-2008, 03:23 PM
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I've used Mags, Eheims, and Quiet Ones.

The Quiet Ones, aren't. They start out OK, but quickly degrade. I think it has to do w/ the stainless steel shaft they use rather than the ceramic shafts used on better brands.

Mags aren't bad, but having used Eheims, I'll never buy one again. I've had problems with them leaking and/or the threaded connections cracking when used inline. And yes, there is the restart issue...

Eheims are great. I have a 2x1250, a 1260, and a 1262. All are very quiet and reliable. They do vibrate quite a bit, though. Proper mounting and use of flexible tubing into and out of the pump will take care of that. I haven't noticed much heat transfer. About the only downside I can think of is that Eheim pumps are relatively large (physically) for their output.

I haven't yet used an Iwaki, personally, but friends have and swear by them. Virtually bomb-proof quality, particularly the Japanese motored models. The smaller ones really aren't that loud, if mounted+plumbed properly. The big ones (40+) are very audible, however.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 04:37 AM Thread Starter
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"Mags aren't bad, but having used Eheims, I'll never buy one again. I've had problems with them leaking and/or the threaded connections cracking when used inline. And yes, there is the restart issue..."

Do you mean you'll never have a Mag or never have an Eheim? I"m not sure from what you wrote what you meant.

I have gone ahead and ordered the Eheim. I am thinking that not finding much info on either the Sen or Eheim probably means one of two things. 1. they work pretty well without much problem. Or, 2. nobody has them.

I do know a lot of Eheims are getting sold. I'm not sure about the Sens, so I went with the Eheim 1262.

Code:
I'm thinking of running it like this:
                                               ----[ Mazzei ]------> tank
                                             /
                                       [ball valve]
                                         /
tank ->-------[eheim 1262] ------>-------
                                         \
                                       [ball valve]
                                            \
                                             -------[UV]--->tank
I figure I can fine tune the flow to the mazzei and whatever goes through the UV will be great. Even if not much flow goes through the UV that will be fine since dwell time only enhances UV. (I don't even use it all the time anyway).


The pump should be here anytime! Can't Wait!

~ Kayakbabe
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