Sump or canister in this case? - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 07:20 AM
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@Cichlid-140, that is indeed a good article.

One sump related nuance I am trying to understand is how bottom to top circulation works. With both overflow and returns at the surface, how do the lower levels get circulated?
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 11:50 AM
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@Cichlid-140, that is indeed a good article.

One sump related nuance I am trying to understand is how bottom to top circulation works. With both overflow and returns at the surface, how do the lower levels get circulated?
power heads or good filter outlet placements are key. or you can try a gyre pump. BRS has a playlist of how powerheads flow
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rwcWPspIixn0DO

an extreme would be doing those false bottom river set ups/panta rhei/flow to go.

for a peninsula style layout he can just stick the gyre pump on the opposite side of the overflow.


there are overflows that's double walled and can suck the mid and lower levels of the tank.
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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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My intention had been to try adapting an Aqueon style overflow, which has ports at the bottom and middle for pulling in water, to whatever style tank I get. No idea how effective those are though.

If necessary, I considered adding a second pump for the second outflow.

Thanks for the Gyre suggestion - iit's a far cry from those other PHs and may be what I have to use.

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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OVT View Post
@Cichlid-140, that is indeed a good article.

One sump related nuance I am trying to understand is how bottom to top circulation works. With both overflow and returns at the surface, how do the lower levels get circulated?
I get good results aiming the return nozzles at the front corners. that produces a donward flow there and induces some flow back to the OF across the substrate.

I like the gyre pump idea,too I'd just watch the plants and throttle it to keep from tossing them too much. A little fine mist in the tank can help give you a feel for flow patterns. This is where an in-tank or inline diffuser can come in handy.

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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 02:25 PM
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One attraction of using a sump is no equipment in the display tank. Using powerheads negates that attraction.

I used to have an AIO that had intake slots on the back wall, just above the substrate level, in addition to the overflow. That configuration worked pretty well.
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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 02:34 PM
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I'm a sump person myself and highly recommend them, though I do recommend both(canister and sump) being used concurrently as a canister works better at picking up detritus off the bottom portion of the tank.

Great advantages of the sump are is it keeps the water level always exactly the same within the tank, the sump can be used with a ATO or float valve for replenishing evaporated water, equipment(heaters, ATOs, thermometers, etc) can be hidden within the sump, and filter media can easily be accessed and changed out very quickly.

Regarding surface scum, it occurs fast in a planted tank, especially with feeding. Flake foods seem to have a lot of oil(or something in them) that creates surface scum every time you feed the fish.

I've had no issues with off gassing CO2 and my sump, i can still easily obtain high CO2 levels without any issues.
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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 03:40 PM
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1. The LFS personnel I've spoken with have all been politely baffled why I would want a planted tank with an overflow, always citing CO2 loss.

2. This is now going to be a peninsula tank, still with the absolute minimum amount of equipment in the tank, powerheads in this case. How strong a pump do I need to get coverage the length of the tank (nominally 48")?
Keep in mind the experience of a typical LFS employee. If they're are baffled then they don't have much experience. You're not going to have any issues with CO2 and a sump.

You asked how strong a pump because you don't want powerheads. The obvious solution is to go with a DC Variable speed pump which will allow you to dial in your flow. I mentioned this in an earlier response.

You will likely want circulation somewhere between 6 to 12 times your tank volume. So if it's a 90 gallon tank buy a variable speed pump with a range from 500 gph to 1200 gph. And note this is the gph at the height of your tank rim.
Look at the head pressure flow chart of each pump and make sure that pump will push 1200 gph at 5 ft, or whatever your tank rim height.

Another important note: make sure your overflow can handle the maximum pump output. The mfg will be able to tell you the capacity of the overflow.

Here's a link. BRS sells just about every model out there:

https://aquarium.bulkreefsupply.com/...SAAEgKQQPD_BwE
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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Keating1 View Post
I'm a sump person myself and highly recommend them, though I do recommend both(canister and sump) being used concurrently as a canister works better at picking up detritus off the bottom portion of the tank.

Great advantages of the sump are is it keeps the water level always exactly the same within the tank, the sump can be used with a ATO or float valve for replenishing evaporated water, equipment(heaters, ATOs, thermometers, etc) can be hidden within the sump, and filter media can easily be accessed and changed out very quickly.

Regarding surface scum, it occurs fast in a planted tank, especially with feeding. Flake foods seem to have a lot of oil(or something in them) that creates surface scum every time you feed the fish.

I've had no issues with off gassing CO2 and my sump, i can still easily obtain high CO2 levels without any issues.
I really like having 2- FX 6's on my 180 for what you state here: the ability to keep detritus from accumulating on bottom of tank. But, my situation is quite different than most. Low-tech and a tank-full of cichlids- four of which are pushing 7 inches.

But, that said, I would sure like the convenience of quick access to sump for cleaning. The FX 6 is really difficult for me to maneuver and maintenance- let alone 2. I always need to have my husband help me- which is inconvenient.



As far as flake foods and surface scum. Try New Life Spectrum or Northfin foods- I have not had this problem since switching to these prepared food brands.
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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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You asked how strong a pump because you don't want powerheads. The obvious solution is to go with a DC Variable speed pump which will allow you to dial in your flow. I mentioned this in an earlier response.

You will likely want circulation somewhere between 6 to 12 times your tank volume. So if it's a 90 gallon tank buy a variable speed pump with a range from 500 gph to 1200 gph. And note this is the gph at the height of your tank rim.
Look at the head pressure flow chart of each pump and make sure that pump will push 1200 gph at 5 ft, or whatever your tank rim height.

Another important note: make sure your overflow can handle the maximum pump output. The mfg will be able to tell you the capacity of the overflow.
Yes, I thought that was good advice when you mentioned it earlier. Capacity was the question, though, because of the peninsula flow plan. I'm looking at the Apex COR-20, which is 2000 gph, roughly 14x the guesstimated capacity of a 120g with a 40g sump, less hardscape, equipment, and substrate. With any luck, that should be more than enough.

As for the overflow capacity, I assume that will depend on the manufacturer, although I would like to explore installing an Aqueon overflow on whatever brand I get, assuming they sell those parts.

Getting back to the hobby and up to speed.
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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 01:08 AM
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Excellent choice on the pump. Anything made by Neptune is good.
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 01:33 AM
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 03:53 AM
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I am baffled by the love for sumps. I've run them (on large reefs) and they make sense there - a reef has more equipment to hide. But they are noisy, they increase evaporation, and they aren't needed in a planted tank - with inline heaters and CO2 injectors, you can have a tank without equipment inside, that is extremely quiet. I would never run a sump on a planted tank unless it was extremely large (say, 300gal), and maybe not even then. I'm not counting "in tank" sumps with a baffled back wall that leads to the sump, which often do make sense, but conventional overflow to a separate tank beneath.
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 04:12 AM Thread Starter
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Jayo, how would you set this tank up with the absolute minimum amount of gear visible? How do you deal with protein film, for example? Where do the controller probes go?

I've had glass intakes and outflows on a nano which all too soon became filled with algae, the cleaning of which was a real pain. Ditto getting the filters going again after a cleaning. Is there a better way now?

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Last edited by Rainer; 06-11-2019 at 11:56 AM. Reason: probes
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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:16 AM
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People like sumps because they offer the highest amount of customization, filtering power, and ease of maintenance compared to any other solution on the market for larger aquariums. They tend to be diy and considerably cheaper then similar filtering options. They can also be made silent with a little work.

Plus I maintain that while surface film is not as big an issue for a planted tank as it is for saltwater. Regular weekly water changes will deal with most of it. If you are prone to letting water changes go for 2, 3, or even 4 weeks then yea you should really consider a surface skimming option or surface agitation at least. Otherwise not a huge issue. Saltwater it is MUCH more important to deal with surface skimming.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayo View Post
I am baffled by the love for sumps. I've run them (on large reefs) and they make sense there - a reef has more equipment to hide. But they are noisy, they increase evaporation, and they aren't needed in a planted tank - with inline heaters and CO2 injectors, you can have a tank without equipment inside, that is extremely quiet. I would never run a sump on a planted tank unless it was extremely large (say, 300gal), and maybe not even then. I'm not counting "in tank" sumps with a baffled back wall that leads to the sump, which often do make sense, but conventional overflow to a separate tank beneath.
When my overflow is tuned my sump is quiet as a church mouse. maintenance is easier, just swap out socks and tossthe dirty ones in the Washer. siphon into a sock and I can vac till the cows come home(and We haven't see the cows in weeks) zip surface film and they're oxygenation machines.

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