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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 03:49 PM
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Curious what was your water source? There may be exceptions based on other factors but as a rule neos generally won't thrive in less than 2kh or so.

I've heard and seen random exceptions to the rule but I don't think that should be taught to beginners.

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Tap water (KH 2 , PH 7.5), easily went to zero KH with aquasoil. Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.


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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 04:00 PM
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Tap water (KH 2 , PH 7.5), easily went to zero KH with aquasoil. Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.
I think what you're showing there is the answer. You still were adding kh to the tank. So they'd get some before the soil buffered it. How long did you keep the soil in the tank? Adding kh to buffering soil depletes the buffering pretty quick to be honest so your water may have retained kh after a whole.

Bees come from soft water naturally. Neos come from slightly harder water environments. I think just evolution honestly causes the need. Low kh with neos you'll start seeing slowing populations, some molting problems, and the ring of death sometimes.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 04:16 PM
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I think what you're showing there is the answer. You still were adding kh to the tank. So they'd get some before the soil buffered it. How long did you keep the soil in the tank? Adding kh to buffering soil depletes the buffering pretty quick to be honest so your water may have retained kh after a whole.

Bees come from soft water naturally. Neos come from slightly harder water environments. I think just evolution honestly causes the need. Low kh with neos you'll start seeing slowing populations, some molting problems, and the ring of death sometimes.

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Ok, so I hear what your saying, but when someone states that KH is zero, it's almost always due to an active soil pushing it down there and they're confused about it. So this is more about giving someone advice not to worry that the KH is zero, since as you stated the buffering of soil will end. My KH was zero for a very long time, I can't tell you for sure if it ever moved up when I had the shrimp in there.

Most species adapt, especially if tank-raised, so wasn't sure why neos wouldn't as well.
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 04:31 PM
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Ok, so I hear what your saying, but when someone states that KH is zero, it's almost always due to an active soil pushing it down there and they're confused about it. So this is more about giving someone advice not to worry that the KH is zero, since as you stated the buffering of soil will end. My KH was zero for a very long time, I can't tell you for sure if it ever moved up when I had the shrimp in there.



Most species adapt, especially if tank-raised, so wasn't sure why neos wouldn't as well.
OP stated they are using RO water now though. So they are starting with no kh which is why I jumped in. When their tank was thriving it had a half degree of kh so I'm sure they were using tap at that point.

Fish are much more adaptive to water than shrimp. I don't know why, that science is above me. Maybe someone else can chime in here. But there are also fish that are exceptions, see discus.

Also, neos can do OK in buffering soil but it's kinda a waste to ruin buffering soil when they don't need it. Sand or inert gravel makes more sense for neos so you can maintain kh.

Like I said I'm just trying to push best practices, not exceptions to the norm.



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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 06:04 PM
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Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.
This is the million dollar question in my eyes, and I know the standard answer from a kh believer will be "natural habitat."
But that really depends more on where they were bred, how long they may have been captive bred and what conditions they were in rather than what their ancestry lived in 10+ generations back.

Scientifically it would make sense that calcium is important for molting, and that's part of gh so my current breeding experiment with 0 KH (and a smallish seiryu stone) continues on.

I started with over 30 shrimplets, they are 3 weeks old and I still have more than 30 and I've seen more than 30 molted shells so in the short term all looks okay.

I'll track the experiment in my tank journal for sure.
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 06:12 PM
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This is the million dollar question in my eyes, and I know the standard answer from a kh believer will be "natural habitat."

But that really depends more on where they were bred, how long they may have been captive bred and what conditions they were in rather than what their ancestry lived in 10+ generations back.



Scientifically it would make sense that calcium is important for molting, and that's part of gh so my current breeding experiment with 0 KH (and a smallish seiryu stone) continues on.



I started with over 30 shrimplets, they are 3 weeks old and I still have more than 30 and I've seen more than 30 molted shells so in the short term all looks okay.



I'll track the experiment in my tank journal for sure.
I agree and don't agree at the same time haha. I'm curious to see your findings over time.

My point like I said above is to discus. No amount of home breeding makes them survive better in harder water. Same with GBRs. They survive for a while and then just die.

Experiments are fun though so please keep us posted!

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 06:26 PM
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I agree and don't agree at the same time haha. I'm curious to see your findings over time.

My point like I said above is to discus. No amount of home breeding makes them survive better in harder water. Same with GBRs. They survive for a while and then just die.

Experiments are fun though so please keep us posted!

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Ah, rams... I keep bolivians and I had one tank where a stone was leaching some kh increasing materials driving my ph up, and another tank without that problem.
Same water for both (RO mineralized with seachem equilibrium). Bad tank would have kh near 6, PH in the high 7's and my bolivian rams (and cories) kept slowly withering away while they were thriving in my other tank without that problem.
Finally solved the rock problem and now have slightly acidic water in both with kh near, or at 0 and everyone is happy.

So, I also agree and disagree as I've seen the "they adjust fine regardless of their natural ideal environment" fail over and over. Otos, neon tetras, etc... But there are so many chemicals that simply stating PH and KH as a definitive defense of a hypothesis is incredibly incomplete...

I'm trying to keep this hobby simple and trying to avoid having to do too much to differentiate the tanks I keep from each other. I'm preferring to add more permanent materials (rocks, driftwood) to the tank to regulate the important things to create the best water for the fish. While only mixing up the same brew of water for all the tanks (currently have 4 running, 1 cycling and two on standby for the next whim.)


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Last edited by Roboto; 11-19-2020 at 06:29 PM. Reason: thoughtful addition
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 06:34 PM
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Ah, rams... I keep bolivians and I had one tank where a stone was leaching some kh increasing materials driving my ph up, and another tank without that problem.
Same water for both (RO mineralized with seachem equilibrium). Bad tank would have kh near 6, PH in the high 7's and my bolivian rams (and cories) kept slowly withering away while they were thriving in my other tank without that problem.
Finally solved the rock problem and now have slightly acidic water in both with kh near, or at 0 and everyone is happy.

So, I also agree and disagree as I've seen the "they adjust fine regardless of their natural ideal environment" fail over and over. Otos, neon tetras, etc... But there are so many chemicals that simply stating PH and KH as a definitive defense of a hypothesis is incredibly incomplete...

I'm trying to keep this hobby simple and trying to avoid having to do too much to differentiate the tanks I keep from each other. I'm preferring to add more permanent materials (rocks, driftwood) to the tank to regulate the important things to create the best water for the fish. While only mixing up the same brew of water for all the tanks (currently have 4 running, 1 cycling and two on standby for the next whim.)
See now this is interesting haha. I have kept bolivians in everything, even with seiryu like you noted, and i've never had a problem. Also just tap with it. I feel like bolivians are bred enough that they handle all water at this point, maybe not liquid rock, but they do fine i've seen. I have had certain cories suffer though, more of the expensive/rare ones though.

GBR's though, just don't handle anything other than pure pristine water for longevity.

Agreed on keep it simple. My caridina tanks are all set up the same for the most part. buffering soil. some rocks or wood (only cholla) and buce/ferns/subwasertang with floaters.

I remineralize all mine with the same product to the same TDS/gh 4.5-5. the only tank i alter a bit more is my royal blue tigers, which I add tds booster to bring them to like 175 tds. My others are 130 tds.
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 06:38 PM
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My culprit evil rock leeched much more than a Seiryu. It would probably be great to add in a sulawesi tank.
Creating this little ecosystems is fun and challenging, but sad for the few bolivians and cories that slowly kind of withered away and had no appetite while the others were thriving in another tank. It really was slowly wreaking havoc on the rams, the otos and the false julii cories. I would have just moved them over to the happy tank but I wasn't sure if I had some strange disease happening and naturally didn't want to introduce it to a healthy tank.

Luckily I have that sorted out and I can start restocking that trouble tank again.


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Last edited by Roboto; 11-19-2020 at 06:41 PM. Reason: bonus
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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Ok... so still confused about what to do. Thankyou for all the food for thought. So Iíve made a decision to reconstitute my ro water with some kH in it... the same as my tap water. I know this is going to effect the longevity of my substrate, but I do love my cherry shrimp and my CRS and thereís definitely been a change in population since I started with ro water. And my kH and pH have dropped.
I donít have another tank to move my RCS to, so I think itís the best I can do for now.
Iíll update you on my progress...
Thanks again for all the information.
Cheers Louise

Bump: Ok... so still confused about what to do. Thankyou for all the food for thought. So Iíve made a decision to reconstitute my ro water with some kH in it... the same as my tap water. I know this is going to effect the longevity of my substrate, but I do love my cherry shrimp and my CRS and thereís definitely been a change in population since I started with ro water. And my kH and pH have dropped.
I donít have another tank to move my RCS to, so I think itís the best I can do for now.
Iíll update you on my progress...
Thanks again for all the information.
Cheers Louise
post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 11:55 PM
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Low ph

i need help. In my 1o gallon crystal red tank i used to use fluval shrimp stratum with RO water and bee shrimp mineral to get tds 120. My Ph would be around 6.2. My stratum got old and was time to change so i decided to not use active substrate because cleaning and changing it was a nightmare. I went ahead and redid my tank a 2 months ago with regular shrimp substrate that i use for my neos by aqueon that doesnt buffer at all. Im still using RO water with bee shrimp mineral to get tds of 120. The problem starts when i went to check my ph in the tank. My ph is 5.2. The ph meter is fully calibrated so i know it is accurate. I had a lot of almond leaves and cones in the tank so i removed it but that didnt really make a difference. My question is , is 5.2 ph too low for cystral reds? My objective is to get them to breed. I dont understand why my ph is lower now vs what it was with the buffering substrate i was using which was meant to lower my ph. Should i leave it be or raise my ph to 6.2. Right now bee mineral doesnt have kh so i was thinking if i mix salty shrimp gh kh with bee shrimp mineral Gh , 60 tds each, it will give me a kh of 1, gh of 5 , and tds of 120 before i put the water in the tank and the kh shoul help to stabilize my ph around 6 . What do you think? What should i do , leave it alone or add some kh? Why is my ph lower now then i was with active substrate when i didnt change any thing else i was doing. Please help!
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-20-2020, 12:34 AM
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OP stated they are using RO water now though. So they are starting with no kh which is why I jumped in. When their tank was thriving it had a half degree of kh so I'm sure they were using tap at that point.

Fish are much more adaptive to water than shrimp. I don't know why, that science is above me. Maybe someone else can chime in here. But there are also fish that are exceptions, see discus.

Also, neos can do OK in buffering soil but it's kinda a waste to ruin buffering soil when they don't need it. Sand or inert gravel makes more sense for neos so you can maintain kh.

Like I said I'm just trying to push best practices, not exceptions to the norm.
I hear you on the RO, but nothing stated so far tells me OP needs to reconstitute with KH. Also with my tap I think the buffering substrate would last quite a while. If your getting more than a year out of it without issue that's a pretty long time without KH. The Neos seem very adaptable as they have obviously been bred forever. I bred them in KH zero, ph 6.5 and now they are just as prolific in KH 12-16, PH 6.5 (Seiryu stone / co2) for over a year.
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-20-2020, 12:52 AM
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I hear you on the RO, but nothing stated so far tells me OP needs to reconstitute with KH. Also with my tap I think the buffering substrate would last quite a while. If your getting more than a year out of it without issue that's a pretty long time without KH. The Neos seem very adaptable as they have obviously been bred forever. I bred them in KH zero, ph 6.5 and now they are just as prolific in KH 12-16, PH 6.5 (Seiryu stone / co2) for over a year.
OP stated since the switch to RO that their cherries population is decreasing. Isn't that telling that they need kh? They were fine before when tap was a source.

The other problem with tap and buffering soil aside from depletion of the soil buffering capability is that you're now creating ph swings. Tap is coming in with kh and ph and then the soil pulls the kh out and lowers the ph at every water change. That's also a stresser. Lastly she's using stratum which is quite possibly the least buffering soil out there. If you get 6 to 9 months of buffering with tap that's a miracle, even if you have a low kh tap source.

Unless you're quite literally testing your water in the tank 3 days post water change every week you really can't defend these facts. I'd be blown away if you could prove using tap with weekly water changes and stratum that it's still buffering to 0 kh after 6 months.

I'm enjoying the discussion here though. I've said there's exceptions to almost all rules but realistically this doesn't happen often with neos or caridina.

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-20-2020, 12:55 AM
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i need help. In my 1o gallon crystal red tank i used to use fluval shrimp stratum with RO water and bee shrimp mineral to get tds 120. My Ph would be around 6.2. My stratum got old and was time to change so i decided to not use active substrate because cleaning and changing it was a nightmare. I went ahead and redid my tank a 2 months ago with regular shrimp substrate that i use for my neos by aqueon that doesnt buffer at all. Im still using RO water with bee shrimp mineral to get tds of 120. The problem starts when i went to check my ph in the tank. My ph is 5.2. The ph meter is fully calibrated so i know it is accurate. I had a lot of almond leaves and cones in the tank so i removed it but that didnt really make a difference. My question is , is 5.2 ph too low for cystral reds? My objective is to get them to breed. I dont understand why my ph is lower now vs what it was with the buffering substrate i was using which was meant to lower my ph. Should i leave it be or raise my ph to 6.2. Right now bee mineral doesnt have kh so i was thinking if i mix salty shrimp gh kh with bee shrimp mineral Gh , 60 tds each, it will give me a kh of 1, gh of 5 , and tds of 120 before i put the water in the tank and the kh shoul help to stabilize my ph around 6 . What do you think? What should i do , leave it alone or add some kh? Why is my ph lower now then i was with active substrate when i didnt change any thing else i was doing. Please help!
Ph is lower cause no buffering substrate and you have no kh. That's it. The leaves will lower it more with tannins too. Your shrimp may do ok. If you don't like cleaning up and changing substrate and don't want to change the tank get a buffering substrate and put a good amount in a stocking. Tie the stocking on the other end and drop it in your tank. That will buffer the water and it's an easy cleanup and change when it stops buffering.

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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 11-20-2020, 12:57 AM
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Ok... so still confused about what to do. Thankyou for all the food for thought. So Iíve made a decision to reconstitute my ro water with some kH in it... the same as my tap water. I know this is going to effect the longevity of my substrate, but I do love my cherry shrimp and my CRS and thereís definitely been a change in population since I started with ro water. And my kH and pH have dropped.

I donít have another tank to move my RCS to, so I think itís the best I can do for now.

Iíll update you on my progress...

Thanks again for all the information.

Cheers Louise

Bump: Ok... so still confused about what to do. Thankyou for all the food for thought. So Iíve made a decision to reconstitute my ro water with some kH in it... the same as my tap water. I know this is going to effect the longevity of my substrate, but I do love my cherry shrimp and my CRS and thereís definitely been a change in population since I started with ro water. And my kH and pH have dropped.

I donít have another tank to move my RCS to, so I think itís the best I can do for now.

Iíll update you on my progress...

Thanks again for all the information.

Cheers Louise
One population is going to drop either way in my opinion. Crystals if you add kh above 1 or cherries if you remove kh entirely. They just aren't meant to be together. You can keep tigers with crystals in 0 kh or tigers with neos in 2kh too if you want to mix and match. Cherries and crystals just really don't work together.

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