How to make a (far more robust) line of shrimp - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
Bloody Mary mixed with Painted Fire Reds *CAN* result in more red offspring. I don't know if any offspring are wild type, however.
What proportion of red offspring are we talking about? What do all the other ones look like then, if not red and not wild type?

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Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
I know in birds we have recessive, dominant, codominant and sex-linked genes. If you take a bird that is normally green and "remove" the yellow gene, you end up with a blue bird. You can have a bird that is neither blue nor green, but somewhere inbetween. This would be a partially blue bird, aka par-blue/parblu. You can have at least two parblue mutations as well as a blue mutation in one species alone. In other words, how much the yellow gene is turned "off".

Something like a rili pattern I would suspect could potentially be bred for if you mixed different colors, starting with at least one shrimp that's rili. This is a pattern mutation - presumably. However, the colors themselves? I don't know.... seems to vary from one line of shrimp to another. This seems most obvious in some of the blues and chocolates throwing different blues or reds.

I do suspect that the colors could be a "factor". In birds, depending upon what color is selected, this could be "red factor", "blue factor", "green factor", etc. You select the birds with the most color that you like and pair them together until you achieve a bird that has abnormal colors for the species. This is the same as the example given with the corn snakes.

I purchased Yellow King Kongs. All the shrimp I received were yellow. However, they came from a line known for throwing shrimp with clear heads, rili patterns and other abnormal markings/colors. One of those yellow shrimp did grow up and lost it's head coloring. I have at least one adult now that is a pale yellow, almost clear with no coloring. I have several with clear heads. It's been a while since I've seen any with a rili type pattern, but there are a bunch of babies now in the tank. The closest "rili" type pattern I've seen is a YKK with a clear head but the rostrum was yellow.... another clearheaded one had yellow eye stalks.
Yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if the rules for the different colors were not the same. The original example was Blue Dream shrimp, but I wouldn't be surprised if red was a lot easier to achieve.

It sounds like there are many intermediate phenotypes in hybrid groups and recessiveness might to be as strong an influence as I had thought and both of those things, if true, would make this project significantly easier.

Theoretical knowledge is inferior to practical experience, but the marriage between the two is built on data. We could improve our understanding with some carefully chosen test crosses and good documentation.
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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 01:52 PM
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I don't know about the Bloody Mary x Painted Fire Red cross since this wasn't something I did myself. That particular line was called "Savage Red's", produced by Lindsay Savage. To my knowledge, Lindsay no longer has the reds.

I have heard of inferior shrimp being produced when bloody mary are mixed with a lower grade of cherry.... which that I have done. I don't know how much breeding was done between the two, only that I never got any wild type offspring. This was not intentional either, just mixed based on circumstances at the time.
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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 06:02 PM
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Once you move beyond one or two genes to control a trait everything looks a bit like line breeding anyway - you need to have a bunch of genes fixed in a certain arrangement to get the phenotype you're after, and it takes either inbreeding (which line breeding is a form of), breeding lots and lots of shrimp, or both to achieve that.
We're overall in agreement here. My thinking is that there are numerous fixed genes going on in either a cherry shrimp or Okeetee corn snake, by the evidence that breeding to a different phenotype can set you back so much farther than it would if 50% of the offspring would be het for the gene in question if it were a single recessive gene.

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However, the reason why I think the color genes are mostly recessive is because it's my understanding that if you cross a colored shrimp with a wild type all the babies are wild type, not an intermediate mix between the two. Is that wrong?
I would say that is incorrect, but with a huge asterisk. I have colors pop up in cull tanks frequently, but that's almost meaningless as evidence to support my hunch. This is where it gets so much more difficult with dwarf shrimp than with a corn snake. There are plenty of wild corn snakes that can be captured and used for breeding that are almost certain to not be heterozygous for the traits you are testing against. And in that hobby, the snake has to either be wild-caught or from a trusted breeder who has never bred it to a color or pattern morph. This is impossible to do in the US with Chinese shrimp simply because any wild type almost certainly came from colored parent stock. And as clear as that wild type shrimp may be, its parents or grandparents almost surely were selectively bred for color and there's a good chance that it still carries the gene(s?). A second complication is that a corn snake can be sexed right out of the egg and never come in contact with its own species before breeding time. In a colony of shrimp, by the time a female is of such a size to determine gender, there's a very real chance she's been bred by a tank mate.
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That is a sincere question - this is theoretical to me and I know you have a lot of experience with shrimp. (It might not be the same for every color.) Also, it's my understanding that if you mix Bloody Mary shrimp and Fire Red shrimp you end up with wild type even though both are very red. The fact that these reds don't work together suggests mutations on different genes. Again, I could have bad info and feel free to correct me if that's not right.
It's theoretical to all of us! At least until someone can prove it out by breeding popular color mutations to wild type shrimp that we absolutely know are heterozygous for no mutations. It would also require isolating and growing out baby shrimp alone to test against the wild shrimp, and then doing the same with the next generation of offspring. It wouldn't be *that* hard to do, but would require quite a few aquariums and a source of known wild shrimp that didn't originate from cultivars. But if it were one single simple recessive gene, it could be proven out by the 2nd generation. As for your example, I've heard mixed reports on people breeding BMs to fire reds and so forth, but I don't believe that all wild types are expected. There is also the complication of trade names, and sellers calling bright red shrimp BMs that may not have come from that original line, etc.
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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 07:12 PM
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We're overall in agreement here. My thinking is that there are numerous fixed genes going on in either a cherry shrimp or Okeetee corn snake, by the evidence that breeding to a different phenotype can set you back so much farther than it would if 50% of the offspring would be het for the gene in question if it were a single recessive gene.
Yeah, what we're both saying is largely not at odds. I was making a bold conjecture about the importance of recessive genes, but that particular point doesn't change the contour of the breeding project that much. The larger issue is the number of required genes.

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I would say that is incorrect, but with a huge asterisk. I have colors pop up in cull tanks frequently, but that's almost meaningless as evidence to support my hunch. This is where it gets so much more difficult with dwarf shrimp than with a corn snake. There are plenty of wild corn snakes that can be captured and used for breeding that are almost certain to not be heterozygous for the traits you are testing against. And in that hobby, the snake has to either be wild-caught or from a trusted breeder who has never bred it to a color or pattern morph. This is impossible to do in the US with Chinese shrimp simply because any wild type almost certainly came from colored parent stock. And as clear as that wild type shrimp may be, its parents or grandparents almost surely were selectively bred for color and there's a good chance that it still carries the gene(s?). A second complication is that a corn snake can be sexed right out of the egg and never come in contact with its own species before breeding time. In a colony of shrimp, by the time a female is of such a size to determine gender, there's a very real chance she's been bred by a tank mate.
Ah, this is a very good point that I had overlooked. Crossing between strains is really not the same as crossing with true wild shrimp because the genetic backgrounds are very different, as you have explained.

But really, the difficulty of getting true wild stock has been an issue with this whole project. Ideally you wouldn't even settle for just any wild stock, but you would screen for your hardiness parameters first so you were starting with wild parents that had the potential to bring something to the table. The worst case scenario is you do your crosses and not only are the color genes a mess, but you haven't gained much in adaptability either.

Thanks @Blue Ridge Reef and @Zoidburg for filling in some gaps for me. This has been a fun discussion. I really ought to keep cherry shrimp sometime, I just need to pick a strain. :P
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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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But really, the difficulty of getting true wild stock has been an issue with this whole project. Ideally you wouldn't even settle for just any wild stock, but you would screen for your hardiness parameters first so you were starting with wild parents that had the potential to bring something to the table. The worst case scenario is you do your crosses and not only are the color genes a mess, but you haven't gained much in adaptability either.
That's very true. I was thinking about the feasibility of doing so, and I think it might be a bit easier than we expect? We know that the N. heteropoda/davidi we're talking about come from Taiwan. We also know that we can acquire wild caught fish (Stiphodon gobies) from Taiwan as well. Finally, we know there are major retailers who work with importers as well (Flip Aquatics). Assuming things don't go bazonkers, we could technically ask Flip Aquatics (or a similar retailer who works with importers from Taiwan, maybe Rachel O'Leary) to acquire true wild caught (and not wild type) shrimp.

Then, it's only a matter of selecting the hardiest wild caught shrimp, which presumably are also wild caught shrimp by subjecting the population to swings in temperature, and TDS. And then from that subpopulation, we can select for the most fecund individuals, which I assume is based off of female shrimp rather than male shrimp.
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