How to make a (far more robust) line of shrimp - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 34Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 06:52 PM
Planted Member
 
pucksr's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorusaconte View Post
Also, you are exactly right, thats what i said as well: and with qualities that improves its life on its environment

This is a pedantic point, but that isn't how selective pressure works in evolution.
In evolution, if some of the shrimp can BARELY survive and other shrimp die, then the shrimp that survived will produce offspring.
However, they don't keep getting "stronger". They don't improve past the initial survival, necessarily.



They won't necessarily keep getting stronger and stronger.


This is a very technical point, but it is a pet peeve of mine. People tend to think of evolution as the animal just getting better and better. That isn't how it works. Animals evolve to survive, not thrive. Look at the California Condor if you want an example of how badly they can evolve. The California condor has one egg per 2 years. It only starts laying eggs at the age of 6.
Most birds will have multiple chicks per year, even if the parents can only support 1. This means that if food is plentiful, they will produce large broods and if food is scarce, they will simply let the young starve to death. The condor evolved to only have 1. This makes the bird incredibly prone to an extinction event. It would take the condor a long time to repopulate and even if some of the birds adapted to the new pressure, the condor couldn't breed quickly enough.

Ordinary fools are all right; you can talk to them, and try to help them out. But pompous fools -- guys who are fools and are covering it all over and impressing people as to how wonderful they are with all this hocus pocus -- THAT, I CANNOT STAND! -Richard Feynman
pucksr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 06:53 PM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 180
Never said they will get strong, and "strong" definition is not power

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
victorusaconte is offline  
post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
ichthyogeek's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 890
Hmmm....also should be noted that cali condors evolved to take advantage of large megafauna deaths like mammoths and the like, and the population plummeted when they died as well.

Granted, sometimes there's a really handy mutation that makes the organism in question better suited for passing on its genes. The longer you live, the more sex you get to have, the more babies you create. We just have to figure out how to select for that....which I guess could be continuously changing the environment that the shrimplets grow up in, to select for the most "robust" ones. While at the same time making sure to not kill every shrimplet in existence....
Fishly and victorusaconte like this.

So many fish/plants/inverts to keep, not enough aquaria.
ichthyogeek is online now  
 
post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 10:00 PM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ichthyogeek View Post
Hmmm....also should be noted that cali condors evolved to take advantage of large megafauna deaths like mammoths and the like, and the population plummeted when they died as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWP_tFJmC40



Granted, sometimes there's a really handy mutation that makes the organism in question better suited for passing on its genes. The longer you live, the more sex you get to have, the more babies you create. We just have to figure out how to select for that....which I guess could be continuously changing the environment that the shrimplets grow up in, to select for the most "robust" ones. While at the same time making sure to not kill every shrimplet in existence....
Thank you

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
victorusaconte is offline  
post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 08:36 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
Fishly's Avatar
 
PTrader: (7/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,382
Hardiness means a lot of things, but mostly it's about the ability to tolerate change. In aquariums, the main changes are temperature, water chemistry (pH/GH/KH/TDS), and water quality (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate). There's also disease immunity, but that's a lot harder to test or quantify.

There aren't really genes for "adaptability to X". You have genes that code for certain cell enzymes or a larger liver. Those genes are lost or mutated just as easily as others, so if the shrimp that produce the next generation happen to have lost the genes for a certain antibody-producer, then that trait will be lost.

Additionally, it's not as simple as one gene = one trait. Genes are often "tangled" together (genes that cause Trait X and Trait Y are side-by-side on the chromosome). For example, the gene that causes red legs may be right next to the gene that determines the shape of the intestines, affecting the shrimp's ability to absorb nutrients. Genes can also have effects throughout the body instead of just one spot. For example, the protein that's needed to produce brown color may be the same protein that's needed to excrete excess ammonia from the gills.

Shrimp breeders have sought the "ideal" conditions for shrimp, then bred shrimp in those conditions for hundreds of generations. The current shrimp are extremely inbred, so even though the "ideal" may have been wider than breeders thought, any genes that would allow them to adapt to other conditions are likely gone.

We know the key to adaptability on a large scale is population variation. Simply having a lot of shrimp from different sources increases your chances of different genes. We also know that mutations happen at every generation. In theory, if you take a large number of inbred individuals and let them breed freely for several generations, mutations can bring back some of the lost traits.

Let's say you want to create bulletproof red cherry shrimp. I would start by getting as large and as varied of a population as possible. Buy many shrimp from many sources, then breed them all together, letting them mix as much as possible. Then I would get some wild (not wild-type, but actually wild caught) shrimp. Breed them to the reds in a separate tank. The F1 generation will appear wild-type, but will have some of those extra genes for red color. Now, here's the tricky part: you need to breed those F1s to reds, but you can't let the population constrict. You might also need to split the population so you have multiple lines going at once.

I would do it by combining shrimp from the different lines based on sex: breed several dozen red females to several dozen F1 males, then take the adults out before the next generation has a chance to breed with their parents. Take the resulting F2 males and breed them to new red females. Repeat until the Fs are reliably red. Run several of these lines in parallel so you can cross between them later.

Of course, you will need to cull to some degree, but you have to be careful. You want lots of breeders and lots of babies.

While this is happening, don't baby the Fs in terms of temperature, water chemistry, and water quality. You'll probably need to baby the original reds, though. You'll have to keep the breeder tanks in ideal conditions while the red parents are there, but then vary the conditions after removing the parents.

Also, try to identify and breed your longest-lived shrimp. If you have a shrimp that seems to be tougher than most, try adding it back in for another round of breeding (this would be a backcross). Or you could just start a tank of your oldest/largest shrimp and let them breed freely, developing an "old-timers" line which you could use for occasional outcrossing.

***************

A small-scale version would be to get a few wild-caught shrimp and breed them with some reds (preferably purchased from different breeders). Take that cross, and split it in two: one line will be repeatedly outcrossed to more reds as above, while the other will be line bred for red color. So you'll need three tanks: a tank of red shrimp, a tank of wild-crosses to be bred with the red shrimp, and a tank of wild-crosses line bred for red color. I would be very curious to see if the wild crosses started producing reds without any additional red crosses, but even if they don't, they'll be useful for outcrossing.

***************

Or, if you have the money, just hire some scientists to figure out exactly which genes control the red color, and then genetically engineer a bunch of wild shrimp. Assuming the red genes themselves don't cause a loss of hardiness, you should have very hardy shrimp with red color. You could breed these shrimp as their own thing or cross-breed them with existing reds to invigorate them. (This is one huge advantage of GMOs that people don't know about - you get the traits you want without the problems associated with inbreeding. Unless, of course, your starting population is inbred and/or you inbreed the resulting modified organism.)

Proud member of
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Fishly; 09-12-2020 at 01:09 PM. Reason: typo
Fishly is offline  
post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 02:14 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1,788
Why not just add jellyfish genes to wild shrimp? Glo-shrimp!
Blue Ridge Reef and Zoidburg like this.
Kubla is offline  
post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 04:29 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Southeastern US
Posts: 103
I was torn on replying more in this thread because this is in my professional wheel house and I can carry on for way too long, but @Fishly has made a long and meaty response and I can't help myself.

Up top, I want to co-sign everything @Fishly has said about hardiness not being a single gene or trait and about the possibility that the color traits are causing or linked with the loss in hardiness. In general I like the breeding scheme that they have set up very much. The one change I would make is that I would interbreed the F1 shrimp together for a generation and try very hard to cull the weaker shrimp at this stage before I started backcrossing to the desired color strain. The reason for this is that your F1 is uniformly 50% wild type 50% inbred strain, but if you breed between these shrimp to make an F2 you end up with a more diverse population of progeny because of trait segregation.

Here's an illustration of that principal:



This example is talking about pea color, but the principle works for all traits - recessive genes that would be masked in the F1 can become homozygous in the F2 and you can select for or against them more easily. I'm not sure you will be able to select for color at all at this point, but it gives you an opportunity to improve the proportion of beneficial alleles before backcrossing and enriching your gene pool.

BUT. Depending on how many genes are involved with the expression of a particular color trait, it can become quickly mathematically intractable to get what you want. As the number of genes go up, you either need to inbreed more and risk losing your gains in your hardiness traits, or breed incredibly large numbers of shrimp to achieve a population of shrimp with a mathematically unlikely gene combination. Or both! If there are intermediate phenotypes where you can visually tell a shrimp has some of the color genes that are fixed with the mutation that would help a LOT, but I don't know that that's the case. There's a lot of points where some research would be very helpful well short of going the GMO route.

Last edited by ElleDee; 09-13-2020 at 03:10 PM. Reason: missing words
ElleDee is offline  
post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-13-2020, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
ichthyogeek's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 890
Dude I love science. Thanks @ElleDee and @Fishly ! This was a great reprimer! Now....here's hoping that I don't have to deal too much with epigenetics...cuz those are a doozy and a half...oh, or codominance/imperfect dominance hahaha.

Alas, I am poor and cannot hire scientists, as I am trying to be a scientist myself (but unemployed atm bc of a certain virus...). But....this only means that I can do the science...I just need to...get the funding...to pay for the science....which means finding a job....sigh*
Zoidburg likes this.

So many fish/plants/inverts to keep, not enough aquaria.
ichthyogeek is online now  
post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-13-2020, 08:46 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Southeastern US
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ichthyogeek View Post
Dude I love science. Thanks @ElleDee and @Fishly ! This was a great reprimer! Now....here's hoping that I don't have to deal too much with epigenetics...cuz those are a doozy and a half...oh, or codominance/imperfect dominance hahaha.
Yeah, there are definitely some more complicated things that could be going on genetically, but I would put my money on the color strains just being a result of a series of mutations that are recessive to wild type.

People think of canaries as yellow, but their wild type color is a mottled dark brown. You only get yellow canaries when production of two their three feather pigments is inhibited as these normally mask the yellow. Black and brown "off", but yellow "on" = yellow bird. I'm spitballing, but I wouldn't be surprised if shrimp are similar but more complicated, with several different carapace pigments being produced, possibly with different variants, and the color strains just have these fixed in a specific configuration. I'm not sure how diverse looking wild shrimp are so there could be common variants in the wild population and also funky mutations that are exclusive to captive shrimp. (There's probably heavy selection pressure against brightly colored shrimp in the wild for obvious reasons.)

I've been thinking about this and I think if I actually wanted to do something like this I would try to talk to people who have already tried to cross strains and see how far they got. Surely someone has tried something along those lines and that could give you a lot of insight in how doable it is.
ichthyogeek likes this.
ElleDee is offline  
post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-13-2020, 10:25 PM
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleDee View Post
I was torn on replying more in this thread because this is in my professional wheel house and I can carry on for way too long, but @Fishly has made a long and meaty response and I can't help myself.





This example is talking about pea color, but the principle works for all traits - recessive genes that would be masked in the F1 can become homozygous in the F2 and you can select for or against them more easily. I'm not sure you will be able to select for color at all at this point, but it gives you an opportunity to improve the proportion of beneficial alleles before backcrossing and enriching your gene pool.
Not all colors are determined by a simple recessive gene though. I bred corn snakes for a good 20 years in a former life. For the most part, genes such as amelanism and stripe are simple recessive genes that can be predicted by a simple punnet square. And then there are codominant traits and so forth. With all of these you at least have odds to work with as long as you know the genetics of both parent animals. But then there are what we call "line bred" traits, which I believe is closer to what we deal with with most dwarf shrimp.
This is a nice wild caught corn snake with better colors and patterns than typical:

When you selectively breed the brightest snakes with the best borders and cleanest patterns for many generations, you get snakes like this:

Two of these snakes from the same lineage will have almost all bright beautiful babies. But breed snake 2 to snake 1, and you will almost certainly get no animals that resemble the 2nd animal. Well, technically you would be breeding one of the progeny back to snake 2 to ensure both parents carried a copy of the gene, but even doing so will likely net you nothing special. Because it isn't a simple recessive gene at all making snake #2 more red. If originally a reddish shrimp popped up in a wild colony and the breeder isolated and kept breeding the reddest individuals together, there's a very good chance that there's no recessive gene being unearthed. It's simply line breeding, which goes away really quickly when outcrossed. And to be clear, I don't know for a fact that dwarf shrimp were line bred to reach the colors we have today. It shouldn't be terribly hard to prove out one way or the other though.
Zoidburg likes this.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is offline  
post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 03:33 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Southeastern US
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Not all colors are determined by a simple recessive gene though. I bred corn snakes for a good 20 years in a former life. For the most part, genes such as amelanism and stripe are simple recessive genes that can be predicted by a simple punnet square. And then there are codominant traits and so forth. With all of these you at least have odds to work with as long as you know the genetics of both parent animals. But then there are what we call "line bred" traits, which I believe is closer to what we deal with with most dwarf shrimp.
This is a nice wild caught corn snake with better colors and patterns than typical:

When you selectively breed the brightest snakes with the best borders and cleanest patterns for many generations, you get snakes like this:

Two of these snakes from the same lineage will have almost all bright beautiful babies. But breed snake 2 to snake 1, and you will almost certainly get no animals that resemble the 2nd animal. Well, technically you would be breeding one of the progeny back to snake 2 to ensure both parents carried a copy of the gene, but even doing so will likely net you nothing special. Because it isn't a simple recessive gene at all making snake #2 more red. If originally a reddish shrimp popped up in a wild colony and the breeder isolated and kept breeding the reddest individuals together, there's a very good chance that there's no recessive gene being unearthed. It's simply line breeding, which goes away really quickly when outcrossed. And to be clear, I don't know for a fact that dwarf shrimp were line bred to reach the colors we have today. It shouldn't be terribly hard to prove out one way or the other though.
I don't think that there is a single recessive gene responsible for color and tried to explain why I thought multiple genes are involved in the last paragraph of that post.

That illustration is just to show that the F2 generation can be more diverse than the F1s, but I can see that is may be and unclear choice. The principle applies to all genes and also works for co-dominant traits which is left out of the graphic all together. The point is that all progeny in the F1 generation are uniformly 50/50. In the F2, each progeny has a different mix where some genes are 50/50, some are all wild type, and others are all from the colored grandparent.

Once you move beyond one or two genes to control a trait everything looks a bit like line breeding anyway - you need to have a bunch of genes fixed in a certain arrangement to get the phenotype you're after, and it takes either inbreeding (which line breeding is a form of), breeding lots and lots of shrimp, or both to achieve that.

However, the reason why I think the color genes are mostly recessive is because it's my understanding that if you cross a colored shrimp with a wild type all the babies are wild type, not an intermediate mix between the two. Is that wrong? That is a sincere question - this is theoretical to me and I know you have a lot of experience with shrimp. (It might not be the same for every color.) Also, it's my understanding that if you mix Bloody Mary shrimp and Fire Red shrimp you end up with wild type even though both are very red. The fact that these reds don't work together suggests mutations on different genes. Again, I could have bad info and feel free to correct me if that's not right.

(I should also be clear that I'm talking about the color only and not the grade. Grade is a whole separate issue.)
ElleDee is offline  
post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 03:44 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
ichthyogeek's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 890
Wait.... @ElleDee, I bow to your knowledge. Can you explain the affiliation with Grades and genetics? Or if it's not genetics at all?

So many fish/plants/inverts to keep, not enough aquaria.
ichthyogeek is online now  
post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 04:11 AM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleDee View Post
I don't think that there is a single recessive gene responsible for color and tried to explain why I thought multiple genes are involved in the last paragraph of that post.



That illustration is just to show that the F2 generation can be more diverse than the F1s, but I can see that is may be and unclear choice. The principle applies to all genes and also works for co-dominant traits which is left out of the graphic all together. The point is that all progeny in the F1 generation are uniformly 50/50. In the F2, each progeny has a different mix where some genes are 50/50, some are all wild type, and others are all from the colored grandparent.



Once you move beyond one or two genes to control a trait everything looks a bit like line breeding anyway - you need to have a bunch of genes fixed in a certain arrangement to get the phenotype you're after, and it takes either inbreeding (which line breeding is a form of), breeding lots and lots of shrimp, or both to achieve that.



However, the reason why I think the color genes are mostly recessive is because it's my understanding that if you cross a colored shrimp with a wild type all the babies are wild type, not an intermediate mix between the two. Is that wrong? That is a sincere question - this is theoretical to me and I know you have a lot of experience with shrimp. (It might not be the same for every color.) Also, it's my understanding that if you mix Bloody Mary shrimp and Fire Red shrimp you end up with wild type even though both are very red. The fact that these reds don't work together suggests mutations on different genes. Again, I could have bad info and feel free to correct me if that's not right.



(I should also be clear that I'm talking about the color only and not the grade. Grade is a whole separate issue.)
Is not what you think, is what ypu can prove in court....wait....wrong chat lol

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
victorusaconte is offline  
post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 04:16 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Southeastern US
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ichthyogeek View Post
Wait.... @ElleDee, I bow to your knowledge. Can you explain the affiliation with Grades and genetics? Or if it's not genetics at all?
Oh, it's almost certainly genetics, but I don't really know enough about what people have observed to propose a way to account for it in this breeding project.

I know that even two top grade parents will have babies of varying grades, but just how much variation are we talking about here? What about if you cross high grade shrimp from different color lines? Are there wild shrimp with highly pigmented carapaces that we could start out with?

But it's an additional trait and that increases the difficulty of the project. The question is by how much? I have no idea, but I bet a real shrimp breeder would have a good practical understanding of how grade tends to be inherited.
ichthyogeek likes this.
ElleDee is offline  
post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-14-2020, 05:58 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,159
Bloody Mary mixed with Painted Fire Reds *CAN* result in more red offspring. I don't know if any offspring are wild type, however.


I know in birds we have recessive, dominant, codominant and sex-linked genes. If you take a bird that is normally green and "remove" the yellow gene, you end up with a blue bird. You can have a bird that is neither blue nor green, but somewhere inbetween. This would be a partially blue bird, aka par-blue/parblu. You can have at least two parblue mutations as well as a blue mutation in one species alone. In other words, how much the yellow gene is turned "off".

Something like a rili pattern I would suspect could potentially be bred for if you mixed different colors, starting with at least one shrimp that's rili. This is a pattern mutation - presumably. However, the colors themselves? I don't know.... seems to vary from one line of shrimp to another. This seems most obvious in some of the blues and chocolates throwing different blues or reds.


I do suspect that the colors could be a "factor". In birds, depending upon what color is selected, this could be "red factor", "blue factor", "green factor", etc. You select the birds with the most color that you like and pair them together until you achieve a bird that has abnormal colors for the species. This is the same as the example given with the corn snakes.



I purchased Yellow King Kongs. All the shrimp I received were yellow. However, they came from a line known for throwing shrimp with clear heads, rili patterns and other abnormal markings/colors. One of those yellow shrimp did grow up and lost it's head coloring. I have at least one adult now that is a pale yellow, almost clear with no coloring. I have several with clear heads. It's been a while since I've seen any with a rili type pattern, but there are a bunch of babies now in the tank. The closest "rili" type pattern I've seen is a YKK with a clear head but the rostrum was yellow.... another clearheaded one had yellow eye stalks.
Zoidburg is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome