First Time Remineralizing RO/DI and pH is way too high. Help! - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 11Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-08-2020, 01:52 AM
Planted Member
 
en7jos's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Singapore
Posts: 211
Sounds like a very sensible plan! =)

I would still favour aiming for the water parameters that the shrimp you buy have come from though over what someone said on Youtube as the shrimp may be quite different. At least match the water initially, then slowly change up/down to what you decide is the optimum.

Not to labour the point about inaccuracies of TDS meters, but please be aware that there are still variations between meters and unless two people have the exact same make/model of meter calibrated with the exact same calibration solution, then readings may still not be comparable. You're going to be in the right ballpark with your calibrated meter though of course, just don't ever be fooled into thinking a TDS meter is "accurate" in any real sense. Why? Because there is no way to measure TDS directly in such a device. What they measure is electrical conductivity and they then apply some notional factor (usually dividing by 2.00 or 2.05) to convert EC into an approximation of what the TDS of the sample would be if it was saline solution (which of course it's not). Temp affects this calibration factor - some meters have temp compensation (i.e. slightly different factors applied depending upon temp) whilst others don't (same factor applied irrespective of temp). This is why SS give instructions based on EC (uS) rather than TDS (ppm) - EC is an absolute measurement, TDS is an absolute measurement multiplied by some random unknown factor.

One thing you might want to try with your GH / KH liquid tests is to double the volume of water in the sample. Each drop of reagent then equals 0.5dH (rather than 1 drop = 1dH) so you can double the resolution of the test kit. Probably a bit unnecessary, but if you're looking to get an exact standard RO + minerals formula, then might be worth some experimentation, especially with the KH value.

For the 200 TDS water, the GH was 9 and the KH was 3.
9+3=12, 12x18 = 216ppm, so pretty close to your TDS measurement

For the 150 TDS water, the GH was 7 and the KH was 2.
7+2 = 9, 9 x 18 = 162, again not far off.

I would suggest that your GH and KH test kits are reading a little on the high side, assuming we are confident that the TDS readings are good. Why? Because SS minerals are GH + KH + a small amount of other stuff. So your TDS reading should always be a little higher than the (GH+KH) x 18 calculation. You results are the other way round - measured TDS is slightly lower than the calc'd TDS, which can't actually be the case.

I use SS GH+ and my TDS measurements are about 20% higher than the GHx18 calc predicts. I would have thought that the SS GH/KH+ minerals would be similar so that your actual TDS is higher (not lower) than the calc'd value. (I'm subject to all the same errors and uncertainties as you of course with my "calibrated" HM Digital meter and API liquid test kits!).

Realistically, all these values are within scope for neo's. Just if you want to be super-precise then it's good to understand the potential error and uncertainty involved!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
en7jos is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-08-2020, 03:09 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by en7jos View Post
Sounds like a very sensible plan! 😃

I would still favour aiming for the water parameters that the shrimp you buy have come from though over what someone said on Youtube as the shrimp may be quite different. At least match the water initially, then slowly change up/down to what you decide is the optimum.

Not to labour the point about inaccuracies of TDS meters, but please be aware that there are still variations between meters and unless two people have the exact same make/model of meter calibrated with the exact same calibration solution, then readings may still not be comparable. You're going to be in the right ballpark with your calibrated meter though of course, just don't ever be fooled into thinking a TDS meter is "accurate" in any real sense. Why? Because there is no way to measure TDS directly in such a device. What they measure is electrical conductivity and they then apply some notional factor (usually dividing by 2.00 or 2.05) to convert EC into an approximation of what the TDS of the sample would be if it was saline solution (which of course it's not). Temp affects this calibration factor - some meters have temp compensation (i.e. slightly different factors applied depending upon temp) whilst others don't (same factor applied irrespective of temp). This is why SS give instructions based on EC (uS) rather than TDS (ppm) - EC is an absolute measurement, TDS is an absolute measurement multiplied by some random unknown factor.

One thing you might want to try with your GH / KH liquid tests is to double the volume of water in the sample. Each drop of reagent then equals 0.5dH (rather than 1 drop = 1dH) so you can double the resolution of the test kit. Probably a bit unnecessary, but if you're looking to get an exact standard RO + minerals formula, then might be worth some experimentation, especially with the KH value.

For the 200 TDS water, the GH was 9 and the KH was 3.
9+3=12, 12x18 = 216ppm, so pretty close to your TDS measurement

For the 150 TDS water, the GH was 7 and the KH was 2.
7+2 = 9, 9 x 18 = 162, again not far off.

I would suggest that your GH and KH test kits are reading a little on the high side, assuming we are confident that the TDS readings are good. Why? Because SS minerals are GH + KH + a small amount of other stuff. So your TDS reading should always be a little higher than the (GH+KH) x 18 calculation. You results are the other way round - measured TDS is slightly lower than the calc'd TDS, which can't actually be the case.

I use SS GH+ and my TDS measurements are about 20% higher than the GHx18 calc predicts. I would have thought that the SS GH/KH+ minerals would be similar so that your actual TDS is higher (not lower) than the calc'd value. (I'm subject to all the same errors and uncertainties as you of course with my "calibrated" HM Digital meter and API liquid test kits!).

Realistically, all these values are within scope for neo's. Just if you want to be super-precise then it's good to understand the potential error and uncertainty involved! <a href="https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/PlantedTank_net_2015/smilies/tango_face_glasses.png" border="0" alt="" title="Nerd" >:-)</a>
Awesome man! Thanks again for all the excellent info. It sounds like somewhere (most likely anywhere) in that 150-190 TDS range should be good for neos. Once the tank finally cycles, I’ll find a good breeder and set my GH/KH/TDS to match prior to ordering my shrimp.
Shrimpandwhitewine is online now  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-08-2020, 04:13 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,170
I wouldn't necessarily say I'm more knowledgeable in some aspects! But it doesn't hurt to bounce around ideas to try and think of what could potentially be going wrong.


A thought about the GH and KH.... Depending on the ingredients, KH can also make up GH, or at least a portion of it. For an example... Calcium carbonate. It is both a GH as well as a KH. Calcium equals GH. Carbonate equals KH. If added to water, it can raise both equally. Therefore, calculating out TDS by trying to use GH and KH separately may not be completely accurate. It is only a thought, of course.

There has been a lot of talk about how SS can vary from batch to batch, although it's hard to say if this is due to different TDS meters, calibration solutions or otherwise. This is why it's recommended to measure out the GH and KH on your own when remineralizing water then figure out what the TDS is from there, rather than the other way around.


I've seen cherry shrimp thriving in an "outdoor pond" (aka half wine barrel container) with around 500 TDS.... have heard of them being in tanks with TDS in the 800-1,000 range and in water that's 16-20 GH. In short, they can live in a variety of water conditions.


Blue Dream shrimp have been a consideration of mine, however considering the unstable genetics of blue shrimp, I've been considering a blue tiger type instead, which would require a separate tank...
Zoidburg is offline  
 
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-09-2020, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 29
Hey guys, I’ve been searching for local shrimp breeders in my area and I’ve come up with nothing. I started looking at some of the online ones who seem to be well reviewed for hardy livestock. I found a website called soshrimp.com which is very highly reviewed and they’re out of NY which should be a very quick shipping time to me in NJ. I reached out to the seller to check what parameters he’s keeping his Blue Dreams at and he told me they are at pH 7.5, GH 10, KH 2 and TDS 300.

Now I’m not sure how I can match those parameters since Salty shrimp gives 0.5 KH for every 1.0 GH. When I was only at 200 TDS, my GH was already 9 (if my test kit is accurate) and my pH was consistently 8.3 (even after days of bubbling and circulating the water). I’m pretty stumped as to what I should do to try to match all these parameters. It seems pretty impossible. Which ones are the most important to aim for? I’m kind of thinking that remineralizing to 200 TDS to achieve a GH of 9 and KH of 3 might be my best bet even if pH will be off, but is jumping from 300 to 200 TDS too much of a shock even if I drip acclimate them for hours at 1 drip/second? What are your thoughts? I so want to get this right this time around.
Shrimpandwhitewine is online now  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 02:40 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,170
I think the plan is if you shoot for 9 GH and acclimate them then that may be your best bet to acclimating them to your tank.
Zoidburg is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome