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I'm at my wits' end

7K views 50 replies 10 participants last post by  Cr9 
#1 ·
Alright guys, I'm new to this forum, and I need your help. I can not for the life of me figure out what is going on, and am at my wits' end.

Here is the problem. For the last 3 weeks I have on and off been having issues with shrimp dying in my tank. I'm finding one dead every 1, to 2 days. I was having a similar issue about 9 months ago and figured out I was an idiot and had too much co2 into my tank. It was something simple that I had overlooked because I got busy.
I'm really hoping I'm having the same issues now.
Let me know what information you all would need to know to help me solve my issue.
Some info I'm sure you'll want to know is my perameters, filtration, fertilization, and what not. I'll include that all below, with a picture of the tank so can see the routing of filtration and everything.

Tank stock:
Sakura/cherry shrimp
Blue pearl shrimp

Parameters:
Ph:6.4
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5ppm
Kh: 1°-2°
Gh: 3°-4°

Tank is between 1~1½ years old. I completely redid the tank, don't remember the exact date, but do know it was between 1~1½ years ago.

Fertilizers: 3½ pumps NilocG thrive-S every 3rd day, checking nitrates along the way.

10% water change twice a week, or 20% once a week slowly adding the water.

Water used is RO/DI water. (This is one of the things I've been suspecting could be the cause)

Filtration is a cascade 1000 turned down about 1/4 of the way

CO2: for this I just simply try to keep my indicator fluid green. Haven't found anything online that would suggest that's bad, but let me know otherwise.
The co2 goes directly into a reactor to be dissolved into the water

Temperature is at 75°

Light begins turning on around 9am, off by 9pm.

Any other information needed let me know, and please help me figure this out.
Thanks ahead of time guys!
 
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#3 ·
GH is low. 5-7 is what I try to keep for neos.

Temp is high. - I ended up just getting rid of my heater all together to keep things consistent. This helps with watch changes - keeps the temperature more consistent when adding water to the tank.

Might want to stock some snails and maybe a otto or 2. I did this because I noticed that my biological bacteria had no waste to feed on. I most likely was getting ammonia spikes. By adding some snails/shrimp friendly fish, you help keep the bacterial alive. Shrimp themselves don't have a large bioload at all.

Reduce water change to 10%/week.

Less is more with shrimp. I learned the hard way on this one - wasted a lot of money to learn this. lol
 
#4 ·
No minerals being added to the water, and no air stone.
Could you see this being the issue?
I'm fairly certain it isn't an oxygen issue. That's the one thing i learned, and the hard way. I have my outlet aimed so it will agitate the water and aerate.
Current stock is hard to say. Maybe 30? I know I can always count at least 20 and at least 5 pin dot sized babies.

Question about the ammonia spikes, how many ottos do you think I'd need to add to get rid of this as a possibility? The tank I have is a 20 gallon long. The more I think on it, the more it definitely reminds me of that.
So I think I'll be getting some ottos, turning off my thermometer, and maybe, if I should/need, I'll be adding minerals.
Any other thoughts everyone?
 
#13 ·
Any bit of surface agitation for a tank that small, like you said you have, will suffice for sure. I would recommend 3 ottos and 2-4 nerite snails. I would also recommend using Seachem Stability or similar product when you add the livestock for the first week. This will add some beneficial bacteria to the filter/substrate.

I hope to hear back from you soon.

Bump:
Would you not use in additional minerals to the water? I started looking around and saw people talking about salty shrimp additive? Anything on that?
Tbh, I've only started to get into planted &/or shrimp tanks, around the 20 gallon mark for the past two years. Before this I always had 125 gallon range large cichlid tanks. So all of this is pretty new to me. It seems much more complex & harder to research.
If you want to keep things super simple just use Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ to RO water.

You could take the slightly more advanced route by individually adding a ratio of Ca and Mg to increase GH and adding potassium bicarbonate to increase KH to your RO water.
 
#9 ·
Would you not use in additional minerals to the water? I started looking around and saw people talking about salty shrimp additive? Anything on that?
Tbh, I've only started to get into planted &/or shrimp tanks, around the 20 gallon mark for the past two years. Before this I always had 125 gallon range large cichlid tanks. So all of this is pretty new to me. It seems much more complex & harder to research.
 
#11 ·
Do you have any Ca/Mg/coral/shell based gravel that you once used in cichlid tank? If you put some of it in 5gal bucket with RO it will slowly dissolve Ca/Mg into water.

If you want quick you can just buy products like SeaChem Equilibrium or SaltyShrimp GH/KH+ or buy bulk raw calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate and potassium sulfate and use a dosing calc to roll your own.
 
#12 ·
You definitely want to add minerals. Some people use Equilibrium fine without issues, others go for a product like Salty Shrimp GH/KH. Since Equilibrium only ads GH, I would recommend the SS product. It will raise both GH and KH on a 2:1 ratio.

Air stone *might* help, but I would recommend raising minerals up first. Even with surface agitation, it's possible they aren't getting enough O2 in the water. This may be especially so if the tank is warm. (74° F/23.3 C or warmer) If your tank has a heater in it, remove it! If it doesn't, and it's still warm, add an air stone!


With such a small colony, you really don't need to feed more than once a week, if that, as long as your tank has enough biofilm. If you wanted to, you could feed 3x a week, in minute amounts. Feed an algae based food 2x a week (read ingredients!) and then a protein food 1x a week.



I wouldn't recommend adding ottos until you fix the minerals at least.... no point in adding more livestock to a tank where you are struggling, and ottos I've heard aren't an easy species to keep alive.
 
#14 · (Edited)
You make a good point. @Cr9 Probably should fix these issues in phases before moving to the next.

1. SLOWLY get GH/KH in check.
2. Ensure tank is cycled by adding beneficial bacteria.
3. Then add some ottos/snails to keep beneficial bacteria alive. They also eat leftover food.

For food, I feed everyday but use way less then what the label says. I remove uneaten food after 5 hours if any. Consider Shrimp King Complete shrimp food, my little neos love it.

Bump:
 
#18 ·
I was going through the same issue. All my parameters were perfect. Come to find out, I was cooking my fish with keeping the heater on. Someone suggested that I turn off the heater. everyone stated they kept their shrimp tank at room temperature. ever since then, I went from a death every 1-2 days to 1 ever 2 weeks. And the ones passing away are adults and since I got them from other people, I'm not sure how long they were alive to begin with.

And all the remaining shrimp are more active than before. There are pros and cons to the heater. One is that it helps shrimps give birth quicker which would explain the explosion of shrimplets in the tank. But it can also kill them. so I just turned off the heater and kept it in there just in case. but once this quarantine thing is over, I plan to hit up the lady who was giving away shrimp to get some more and start again.
 
#19 ·
Alright everyone, so I am still dealing with car insurance accident stuff, but I was able to do a few things to the tank.
First thing, I had forgotten that a friend gave me some salty shrimp GH+ in a bag a couple months back. I don't have a gram measuring spoon, or the the little measure that the product comes with. So, I did ¾ teaspoon for 5 gallons of RO water. With that, for now, I'm just gonna use it to top off my water when it gets low. Does that sound about right with everyone? Or should I do a mini water change?
Question though, will I be safe to continue using my liquid fertilizer, NilocG thrive S, with the addition of minerals? Let me know.
All of this said, I feel like my shrimp look healthier.
Side note, starting at the end of last week, I feel like I'm finally starting to win the battle against my green hair algae outbreak I recently had.
 
#21 ·
Yes slowly adding GH is way to do it. Add enough so that when you top off it builds GH gradually. Also adjust your change water so it’s GH is slightly above tanks current GH, say 1° dGH.

When you get GH in tank where you want it stop with top off addition to GH and just mix up your change water to match tanks GH, you’ll just top off with straight RO but manage GH on water changes.
 
#25 ·
So basically what you're saying is, use the salty shrimp in my top off water until i get my desired gh, then just go back to RO to top off? Then, match the gh of my water, with the new water, when it's time for water changes?
What I'm doing right now, let me know if I'm wrong, but I'm adding the mineral straight into my RO/DI water, mixing it up and adding it straight in as top off water.
 
#24 ·
No planaria, or other issues I can see, but I don't know if there is anything I'm missing.

For everyone else, yesterday when I checked the tank I found 6 dead shrimp. Now this is what's weird to me. About 2 weeks ago I found that I have a lot of baby shrimp hiding in my monte carlo. All of the babies, from what I can see, are alive. Could some of this just be older shrimp?

I'm also in a bit of a double headed dragon right now, as I'm also fighting an algae outbreak that started around a similar time. It's green hair algae, too, btw.

Could there be a relationship between the two?
 
#23 ·
If you mix the RO water to 130-150 TDS and use that for top off's and water changes, until your tank reaches same to 200 TDS, you should probably be good on the GH.

What is the TDS of the new mixed water?

Yes, it's fine to use ferts with minerals.


Best of luck getting the insurance stuff cleared soon.
 
#27 ·
Yea you got it. Bring GH up slowly on top off and water changes, then when you get GH in tank where you want only do GH builder to change water and go to straight RO for top off.

Mix your change water to GH you want not the TDS pen. When GH test reads what you want in change water (remember GH test is only reading Ca/Mg in water) then use TDS pen to take that change waters TDS reading and note it. Once you get formula down for this much water+this much GH/KH builder you can simply check it with TDS pen. If you keep formula the same and you see TDS rising in change water you need to check your RO. Maintain the prefilters on your RO and you’ll get years of use out of the RO membrane, slack off changing the floss and carbon prefilters and you’ll get chlorine reaching the membrane and it will die a early death.

Your change water TDS in theory will always be lower than your tanks water even though you have mixed them to same Ca/Mg levels (GH test). Tank water will have other dissolved organic substances such as poop, food, wood decomposing and maybe minerals from rocks that slowly dissolving. The TDS pen should be used on tank to quickly monitor accumulation of ALL dissolved substances in tank water. After you change 10% water, add ferts, wait 10min for water to circulate and check and note TDS. That is your tanks baseline, if you see it going up to much you need to change a bit more water or maybe feed less.

As far as hair algae problem need more specifics. You never said what gallon/dimensions tank is or exactly what light you have and what intensity/ramps are. You gave dosing and photoperiod in 1st post.
 
#29 ·
This is the exact answer I needed, thank you.
As far as lighting and tank, here is what I have:
Aqueon 20 gallon long. Tank dimensions; 30¼"×12½"×12¾".
Light is finnex planted+ 24/7 HLC LED
and here are my exact light dimensions:
6am W:0% R:0% G:0% B:0%
9am W:50% R:50% G:50% B:50%
12pm W:50% R:50% G:50% B:50%
3pm W:50% R50% G:50% B:50%
6pm W:10% R:0% G:10% B:50%
9pm W:0% R:0% G:0% B:0%
12pm W:0% R:0% G:0% B:0%
3am W:0% R:0% G:0% B:0%

Also, question how much of a chance could it be that my shrimp are dying because of mini ammonia spikes, due to lack of bio load? When I first had this tank going about 3 years ago and I had tetras, shrimp, and mini crayfish, i never had deaths, except for the fish eating the shrimp (learned that one the hard way). Granted, that was a much simpler set up.

Then my niece dumped all my fish food, medicine, and chemical test into the tank. Killing everything.

Side note to all of this, I have some left over line stone from my cichlid tank. Would it be a good idea to put some of that in the tank?
 
#30 ·
Also, I have had my co2 on 6am-9pm. With that, the light begins gradually turning on before 9am and will gradually start turning off from 6pm-9pm, when it turns off completely. Could it be caused by the CO2 not having enough light and causing swings?
Maybe turn up the CO2, but start it later, end it earlier?
Let me know what you all think.
Like I said, I'm pretty new to planted tanks and CO2.
 
#32 ·
Sorry for delay, sometime life gets in way. I tend not to give 1/2 answers.

Fuzz/Hair algae almost always nutrients in excess and/or light in excess, I would cut 9am to 40% and do same for 3pm. that will cut that ramp up to a slight peak instead of 6hrs of straight 50%, a 20% reduction in power intensity on both sides of noon peak that will give you light in high range of about 3.5hrs.

In about 3wk (nothing good in a aquarium happens fast, quote from another posters sig) I think you can get things under control just by backing off light slightly. Level out your dosing across week and reduce light slightly and I think you’ll get in that holding pattern where every wk your tank as whole does better.

In about 3wk let us know how it’s going. All proper tank adjustments are small, make a adjustment, see results 2+ wk later,
 
#34 ·
One last question for everyone, could the issue be in the flow of my water, as well?
I feel like the flow is good, but maybe I'm wrong. Below is how it is set up.
I have the outflow on the left side, angled at about 45°. The outflow is just the normal nozzle that comes with the cascade 1000, with out the directional spout attached. The intake is in the opposite corner, close to the substrate. I'm wondering if it would be better if I did one of the following; put the spray bar on instead, or move the intake into the same corner as the outflow to create more of a current.
Couple of extra things as well; I have the canister flow at 1/2 so the shrimp don't get thrown around and I have sera florets inline CO2 reactor in the outflow.
Let me know what you all think.
Thank you very much for all of your input
Cody
(P.s. haven't had any shrimp death for a little bit, and the algae has gotten a lot more under control.)
 
#35 ·
You should be fine with co2 running 8AM to 8PM.

With that long a tank I would use multi-segment spray bar canister came with, point two center segments down and slightly at back wall to flush water down to substrate layer behind plants. The segments of bar on ends point them just slightly up at water surface and headed towards front glass for surface ripple. You’ll have a nice gentle current all around tank and good high->low water movement for proper gas and nutrient distribution. Position co2 diffuser under one of end segments so when any bubbles come up they will get caught in that wide stream of water and swept around tank.
 
#36 ·
I noticed you said: "Position co2 diffuser under one of end segments".
My CO2 line goes directly into an inline reactor. With that, would you position the spray bars any different?
Also, I am wondering if my algae issue might be directly related to my current inlet/outlet positions. Algae will now only grown in some very select spots. Spots that I feel probably have less circulation to them.
Let me know, and again, thank you to everyone who has posted and helped thus far. It has been very helpful and educational.
Like I said, I've had aquariums for a long time, but I am new to planted/shrimp side of things. I've only really had large catfish/cichlid, and African cichlid planted tanks.
 
#37 ·
No worry’s then, I was thinking you had a diffuser. You’ll have great gas distribution throughout tank.

Stagnant areas of tank are always problematic. Not just for plants but for distribution of gases around tank. It keeps debris in motion so they get picked up and a good high->low flow ensures gases are pushed down to substrate level where micro-currents of oxygenated water are pushed into substrate making sure aerobic bacteria there fluorish. Plants also uptake co2 at roots and use that carbon for various nutrient uptake and transport functions.
 
#38 ·
So I just read an interesting page that brought up a lot of questions, & maybe some answers, too. I'll include the link at the bottom.

So, in this article it is talking about the surface agitation, O2, and CO2. With that I had no spray bar, and my outflow pointed at 45°~60° from the far top left, and inlet on the bottom right. Because of this, could I have not been getting enough oxygen low enough, and more, or less, been suffocating my shrimp?

Also, towards the end of the article, it talks about getting a surface skimmer, because if you have any surface film it will completely inhibit oxygen exchange. I don't why that never crossed my mind, but my tank does build up a surface film fairly quickly. So, would you all suggest that I get a surface skimmer? If yes, what would your suggestions be?

With a lot more thought on surface agitation and circulation, what would be your suggestions on the amount of surface agitation? Tiny ripple? Medium ripple? Let me know.
The last part of this: on here (can't remember without going back) someone suggested I put the spray bars on with the outer forward and up for agitation & circulation, then the middle two pointed backwards to get co2 dispersion behind the plants. Well, only three spray bars will fit in, so I have the outer two pointed forward and a little up, then the middle one point straight backwards. Will that have the same effect? Also, will the one pointing backwards interfere with the tanks circulation?

Let me know guys, and again, thank you.

Article:
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why/how-to-push-the-limits-of-co2-safely
 
#41 ·
Appreciate the response.
Unnecessary, as in you feel it won't do the job adequately? As in overkill, underkill? Or personal preference?

Agreed, in my experience an airstone will take care of that in short order. Doubt I'll ever run a high tech tank without one again.
I appreciate the response here, too.

For both of you, would you say it's more of a personal preference on why you run an air stone instead of a surface skimmer?
On the same note, is there anything you would feel is wrong with using a surface skimmer? I ask because personally I hate using air stones. No good reason, or legitimate issue with them, except I just don't like the way the bubbles look in the tank. Not a real good reason, I know. This is the same reason why I use a reactor instead of a diffuser.

Again thank you for the input and I appreciate the future responses
 
#43 ·
What does “straight backwards” on middle spraybar mean? You want it to aim downward along back glass, just like the ones blowing slightly up making surface ripple you want it angled 1-2° towards glass so it hits glass and fans out and makes a nice wide current that moves water from top of tank to substrate level down the back wall.
 
#44 ·
Middle spraybar is not pointed directly backwards. It's probably angled about 5°~10° down. Trying to decide if I want to point it down a little more, or not.

Update and good news, too. Algae has almost all receded, or is gone, with the exception of a few spots of BBA.
Even better, I haven't had a single shrimp die since the last time I posted about a death. Not only that, shrimp are much much more active.
 

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