life stages/hardiness of shrimp and why one tank explodes and another doesn't - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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life stages/hardiness of shrimp and why one tank explodes and another doesn't

I was reading @Discusluv's Spec V thread (https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...l#post11300501) and didn't want to hijack it with my almost rhetorical questions so am starting a new discussion. Jake answered her question about changing water with something that mirrors my experiences of buying and acclimating adult shrimp vs juveniles:

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Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post

Parameters could have played a role here because your shrimp are pretty mature. If they were all really young juveniles, it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. But I find that older shrimp are just not as flexible as juvies. It can be tough to get them to adjust to parameters that are a degree of hardness or so off even when it's done slowly.
Lately my own water changes of late are seeing the adults handle if far better than babies/juveniles. Last fall I started losing some tangerine tigers that had been doing really well. Muscular necrosis was likely the culprit. I got Baytril to treat, but after reading up on it saw that a series of large water changes was said to be equally effective and I wanted to avoid antibiotics on the tank if I could. I did a 90% water change and then started doing 50% daily for the next 14 days. The disease seems to have cleared up, but in the process I lost every baby shrimp, and there were over a hundred. Of course, this could have been the disease affecting the tiny babies and I would never see it. But similarly, when I drained and rescaped my Osaka last month, all babies seemed to have perished while adults are still shrimping along. But when buying shrimp and acclimating them to tanks, I've had wildly better luck with juveniles than adults though. It's a small sample size to draw much from but enough to make me wonder if one life stage might be more sensitive to one parameter change and another sensitive to a different one?

For a few months now, I've been filling tanks slowly with airline tubing after water changes to minimize the stress it seems to bring. When using remineralized RO, everything I can test (right down to temperature) is a near match and in my tanks using tap, they're maintained often enough to be very close too and I'm letting the tap degas for 48 hours. Hardness values are definitely changing less than 1 point on an API kit and TDS within 10 PPM. But even still I have two tanks where the shrimp are eating and growing (pintos and OEBTs) but I've yet to spot a baby. You can throw out the pinto tank though, as there are possibly no females. In the OEBT tank, I've seen three heavily berried females now, but at least one died right before birth and another likely has or else dropped her eggs. I'm worried that in spite of following care sheets to a T, there's something I'm not doing right for these. Having said that, another tank treated pretty identically (except given more food) is crawling with new generations. It's stocked with resilient CRS and yellow Neos though, so hardy shrimp may be the only factor. I'm over a decade into keeping shrimp at this point and the phenomenon of "one tank blowing up while another makes no babies, then 6 months later they swap" seems very real. But to my mind, there HAS to be a reason. I can't imagine that in nature any creature goes through periods of thriving and stagnating when the environment and resources are ideal. Thanks for any thoughts, this has been bugging me to the point I fall asleep thinking about it.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
I was reading @Discusluv's Spec V thread (https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...l#post11300501) and didn't want to hijack it with my almost rhetorical questions so am starting a new discussion. Jake answered her question about changing water with something that mirrors my experiences of buying and acclimating adult shrimp vs juveniles:


Question 1 It's a small sample size to draw much from but enough to make me wonder if one life stage might be more sensitive to one parameter change and another sensitive to a different one?

Question 2 I'm over a decade into keeping shrimp at this point and the phenomenon of "one tank blowing up while another makes no babies, then 6 months later they swap" seems very real. But to my mind, there HAS to be a reason. I can't imagine that in nature any creature goes through periods of thriving and stagnating when the environment and resources are ideal. Thanks for any thoughts, this has been bugging me to the point I fall asleep thinking about it.
Such great questions-- I sure hope we get some conversation about this...
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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I get very wordy sometimes, thanks for simplifying that! You know how in real estate they say "location, location, location?" Well, in shrimp I feel like a ton of your success comes down to "Stock, stock, stock." For example I'm able to accept that my blue bolts (imported), most of which lived for several months, never made babies, and have since died were a bad purchase that I was behind the 8 ball on all along. But hardy Neo shrimp I produced myself go through periods of breeding and then stopping. At least in the main tank they are in. I keep an aquarium journal, but I really should make a lot more entries and note exactly when I notice things. I've wondered about hormones and such too, and whether using carbon from time to time could have value. But I'd think we've all noticed that when you have higher populations is when they really take off -though most of that may only be due to the fact that with exponentially more shrimp you'd naturally have more breeding success.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 06:27 PM
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I get very wordy sometimes, thanks for simplifying that! You know how in real estate they say "location, location, location?" Well, in shrimp I feel like a ton of your success comes down to "Stock, stock, stock." For example I'm able to accept that my blue bolts (imported), most of which lived for several months, never made babies, and have since died were a bad purchase that I was behind the 8 ball on all along. But hardy Neo shrimp I produced myself go through periods of breeding and then stopping. At least in the main tank they are in. I keep an aquarium journal, but I really should make a lot more entries and note exactly when I notice things. I've wondered about hormones and such too, and whether using carbon from time to time could have value. But I'd think we've all noticed that when you have higher populations is when they really take off -though most of that may only be due to the fact that with exponentially more shrimp you'd naturally have more breeding success.
No, that is not why I did that ( 'wordiness") -- context is important. It is because it makes it easier for some to include context when they can see the questions before and after reading. Sorry, too much reading comprehension theory.


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 09:24 PM
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With people the healthier you are the more resilient you are to temperate and general environmental changes. While bacteria and viruses do make you sick in most cases your body fights them off. And occasionally are own immune systems do recognize cancer and can eradicate it from the body more effectively than any doctor. However as we age our immune system gets weaker and eventually we get a disease we cannot fight off and we die.

So When I talk about health here I am not talking about diseases but instead talking about nutrient deficiencies. Do your shrimp have everything they need in there diet to have a strong immune system? Excluding protein, sugar, fats, and carbohydrates, All animals do need minerals. If you don't get what you need in your diet you could get very sick. Generally plants and animals do need the same minerals. However there are a few differences. Sodium and iodine are two that I am aware of right now. I found my shrimp were not doing well and in some ways I looked like a friend that had thyroid problems. I added iodine and they corrected the problem within a day and over the long term. In another forum a year or more ago a person had problems seeping nerve snails alive. No one suggested this by he decided to switch from potassium bicarbonate to sodium biarbonate and found it worked.

In RO water we remineralize with calcium and magnesium because most fertilizers don't have calcium or enough magnesium and then add plant specific fertilizers. Most people prefer potassium bicarbonate because they heard sodium is bad (it's not). Very few people add iodine on a regular basis to RO water. Tap water probably has sodium in it while. So overall even after applying fertilizer, GH booster, and KH booster. your plants may grow fine but your shrimp could be suffering from nutrient deficiencies that make it difficult for them to reproduce or survive a simple water change.

Quote:
I'm worried that in spite of following care sheets to a T, there's something I'm not doing right for these. Having said that, another tank treated pretty identically (except given more food) is crawling with new generations.
Assuming all the food you feed is all plant based it still may have nutrients animals need. while plants are good at filtering out nutrients it needs to grow it will occasionally take in elements it doesn't need with get incorporated in the tissue of the plants. Iodine and bromineis similar to chlorine. Sodium, and selenium is similar to potassium and sulfur. So your will find some in food. But if you feed less in some tanks the shrimp in those tanks may not do as well. Also found in food are a variety of heavy metals which amo,a;sdefinitely don't need including mercury, uranium and thorium.

I do know the 0.04ppm iodine and 10pppm are safe in my tank. But I have not really looked at other possibilities.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 02:05 PM
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That was also my polite way of saying, without being a jerk, that someone shipped adult shrimp - a bit of a rip-off, in my opinion - instead of juveniles. Many sellers ship adults because their lines aren't as 'pure' as they claim (or they're unproven imports being offered as anything but) and most buyers are unsuspecting. They tend to be less healthy than experienced hobbyist-raised shrimp and can't handle slight parameter swings, in part, because they're less healthy.

And... it can also be tough to tell how old an adult shrimp is. It could be near the end of its lifespan when you get it and look similar to a relatively 'young' adult. Which is a bit of a rip-off and frustration even if someone is buying adults because they're breeding age.

One of the reasons older shrimp have more difficulty adjusting to variances in parameters than juvenile shrimp is because they aren't growing and molting frequently like a juvenile would. Juvie shells are constantly growing and re-hardening and that means they're able to better adapt to osmotic pressure variances.

If you're having better luck with adults than juvies and you're pretty sure they're healthy, something is definitely off with the tank. Could be microbial, pathogenic, could be slight ammonia levels you aren't detecting, a bazillion different issues. Could even be something some of your substrate or hardscape is releasing occasionally.

As far as one tank exploding and one not... that's not something I've ever really had happen unless there's something haywire with a tank. Though, when it comes to Caridina, I've had tanks that won't produce as much as another if it's a degree off temperature-wise. Being a foot or two higher or lower on a tank stand can lead to those differences. And if the tank is larger than a gallon or two, then there are more likely to be different temperature regions of a tank. Wouldn't matter for hardy fish but might when it comes to shrimp reproduction. Nothing to worry about, really, just something that could help explain what's going on.

And @Surf touched on something kind of important. I don't want to go too far into it, lest some buttcramps here and there complain that I'm promoting something I sell (to be clear - I'm not promoting anything because I don't make mass quantities of anything)... but... quality of ingredients matters a heck of a lot more for sensitive critters than some can imagine. It's why I steer clear of mass-produced shrimp food that doesn't have any sort of quality control on the ingredient growth front. I'm not saying mass-marketed foods aren't good - I'm saying people need to be picky about what they buy when it comes to feeding expensive critters. I've had such negative experiences in the past that I won't include an ingredient in something I'm feeding my shrimp if it wasn't grown entirely by me.

I got burned enough 12-15 years ago that I even started growing my own Terminalia catappa in a greenhouse environment. For anyone interested in growing their own: they do pretty well in containers, are easy to trim and supplemental lighting is cheap these days. Hardest part is getting them to sprout.


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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 03:32 PM
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When it comes to buying shrimp, I think Ive done it wrong in every way. All retail sources and who knows the myriad of ways Ive been burned.
Not that I wasnt warned.
Maybe my journals can serve as a warning of how those who jump in to quickly ( and dont listen) can quickly part with their money.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 05:37 PM
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Of course everything is going to help others - if they take the time to read. Learning from all of our mistakes will make their lives way better.


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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-26-2020, 10:55 PM
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I've been coming across more and more people who have been struggling with keeping shrimp and they're having deaths.

I give them suggestions, their tanks turn around and start thriving.

Me? My tank is slowly dying off, not thriving, hardly any breeding, but at the same time, I'm not having mass deaths or slow deaths like I used to.


Go figure! LOL



I do have a bunch of females currently berried.... surprisingly.... but I have yet to see any offspring... which I figured I would have seen any time by now... even seen one female that appears to have been berried but is no longer berried... so I don't know if she dropped her eggs or if they hatched or what's going on.


All I do know is that each tank is it's own ecosystem... even if you have two tanks that were set up exactly the same, with the exact same parameters, exact same food and water changes, things can still be different in each tank...
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 12:33 AM
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I've been coming across more and more people who have been struggling with keeping shrimp and they're having deaths.

I give them suggestions, their tanks turn around and start thriving.

Me? My tank is slowly dying off, not thriving, hardly any breeding, but at the same time, I'm not having mass deaths or slow deaths like I used to.


Go figure! LOL



I do have a bunch of females currently berried.... surprisingly.... but I have yet to see any offspring... which I figured I would have seen any time by now... even seen one female that appears to have been berried but is no longer berried... so I don't know if she dropped her eggs or if they hatched or what's going on.


All I do know is that each tank is it's own ecosystem... even if you have two tanks that were set up exactly the same, with the exact same parameters, exact same food and water changes, things can still be different in each tank...
It is hard isn't it?

When I think of it, the only shrimp that have breed well for me are yellow neos, wild neo's, c.babaulti. My Bloody Mary are just starting to reproduce, but I dont really care for them, so giving them away. My PRL and Royal blue tigers have yet to reproduce.
I feel a bit, right now, like Im just not getting it right.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 06:19 AM
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It is hard isn't it?

When I think of it, the only shrimp that have breed well for me are yellow neos, wild neo's, c.babaulti. My Bloody Mary are just starting to reproduce, but I dont really care for them, so giving them away. My PRL and Royal blue tigers have yet to reproduce.
I feel a bit, right now, like Im just not getting it right.

Yeah, it is! I might be interested in the bloody mary though?
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 12:13 PM
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Yeah, it is! I might be interested in the bloody mary though?
They are all going to a new home today.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 01:47 PM
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They are all going to a new home today.
That's good they've got a home!
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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<grins>
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 04:47 AM
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I've honestly haven't had good luck with Bloody Mary... or Neos in general! (or is that shrimp in general?) LOL Best of luck @Blue Ridge Reef !!!
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