Bacterial disease/molting issue? - The Planted Tank Forum
 21Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-07-2019, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,838
Bacterial disease/molting issue?

I've had a few random losses in one of my shrimp tanks over the last few months. I've been finding a body in the neighborhood of every two weeks and even with a macro lens haven't been able to see anything out the ordinary -until today. I was removing guppy grass and duckweed and noticed a tangerine tiger with a milky section around the thorax. It appears to be a loose molt, as shell is just hanging on to the body. I've watched these molt before and they usually pop right out in a second's time.


I've moved this shrimp into quarantine but I feel sure he's a goner. In the meantime, unsure what to treat the main tank with or if I even should. I have a good bit of meds on hand owning a pet supply store, as well as some expired Baytril from my reptile days. I mention that because it's said to be a go-to on YouTube videos, or I can get a fresh (in date) supply by Tuesday if I order it soon.

Parameters are all where I want them and virtually identical to 7 other tanks with thriving Neo populations. pH 7.0, KH >3, GH 8, TDS within 10 of 140, temperature is 69F, no detectable nitrogen in any form. All tanks get 10% water changes weekly like clockwork. Change water is 50% remineralized RO/DI and 50% tap, degassed for 48 hours and siphoned in slowly via airline tubing. I'm near positive it's not maintenance/water quality related. The tank in question has a sponge filter and an airstone with an over sized air pump bordering on ridiculous (Whisper AP 300). Water surface rolls in these tanks on my shrimp rack, gas exchange/low O2 levels simply can not be an issue. Here's a photo of the tank (after removing a ton of guppy grass and floaters):


Shrimp are fed 3x weekly with Jake's complete veggie 2 days a week and Dennerle protein food once weekly. Once in a while I substitute one of these for other Om Nom foods for variety, but these two are my go-to's. I feel like the diet is pretty on point and no food is left uneaten. There haven't been many losses I've missed because there were only 38 shrimp in there to begin with and the numbers haven't diminished noticeably.

I'm assuming the dark area around the head are organs and food since these have been present on these tangerine tigers since day 1. This photo is from 8-22-19 and they've all had this coloration.


Moved the shrimp to quarantine and got better photos. Definitely has a molting issue, but unsure if bacterial disease is also present. I nudged several shrimp in this tank to the front glass and took macro photos and could see nothing out of the ordinary except for on this individual. Any advice appreciated.

Discusluv and Streetwise like this.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 12:59 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 831
It appears to be muscular necrosis. It can be caused by bacterial infection and/or poor water quality. Since you feel pretty confident that it's not your water, I would suspect a bacterial infection as the culprit. Not really much you can do but pull them out as you see them, as it can be transmitted to healthy shrimp. There is an antibiotic that was recommended on an Australian board several years ago called Enrofloxacin but it requires a prescription from vet. Chewy sells it but again, you need a 'script. It comes in both liquid and tablet form. The liquid is what they recommended at the rate of 1 mL per 50L of water dosed for 5 consecutive days to treat. I've never used it personally so I can't vouch for it's effectiveness. I can tell you this, muscular necrosis is no joke. By the time the entire abdomen turns milky like that, the shrimp doesn't have long to live. I've witnessed it wipe out an entire colony of shrimp I purchased from a LFS years ago.
Blue Ridge Reef and Discusluv like this.
madcrafted is offline  
post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 02:01 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
It appears to be muscular necrosis. It can be caused by bacterial infection and/or poor water quality. Since you feel pretty confident that it's not your water, I would suspect a bacterial infection as the culprit. Not really much you can do but pull them out as you see them, as it can be transmitted to healthy shrimp. There is an antibiotic that was recommended on an Australian board several years ago called Enrofloxacin but it requires a prescription from vet. Chewy sells it but again, you need a 'script. It comes in both liquid and tablet form. The liquid is what they recommended at the rate of 1 mL per 50L of water dosed for 5 consecutive days to treat. I've never used it personally so I can't vouch for it's effectiveness. I can tell you this, muscular necrosis is no joke. By the time the entire abdomen turns milky like that, the shrimp doesn't have long to live. I've witnessed it wipe out an entire colony of shrimp I purchased from a LFS years ago.
Oh no! That sounds like an illness you want to move quickly on.

I wonder how difficult/costly it would be to get a prescription. With a photo the vet may just charge a nominal fee for looking at pic and writing a script. Then again, maybe not.
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
 
post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,838
Thanks for the advice. I've contacted my vet via email and sent photos. Hopefully they can do something for me. In the meantime I'm going to try to catch out each one and remove any individuals that appear infected, but so far all look fine. Just realized, Enroflaxin is Baytril. Whew, I can get my hands on that.
Discusluv likes this.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.

Last edited by Blue Ridge Reef; 12-10-2019 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Reasons
Blue Ridge Reef is online now  
post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-10-2019, 04:35 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Thanks for the advice. I've contacted my vet via email and sent photos. Hopefully they can do something for me. In the meantime I'm going to try to catch out each one and remove any individuals that appear infected, but so far all look fine. Just realized, Enroflaxin is Baytril. Whew, I can get my hands on that.
Oh cool! Thats great!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-12-2019, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
The liquid is what they recommended at the rate of 1 mL per 50L of water dosed for 5 consecutive days to treat. .
Have 10% liquid Baytril in hand. It's 100 mg Enrofloxacin per ML. A 20 gallon aquarium is 75.7 liters, but I'll assume 16 gallons of actual water volume since the tank is a couple of inches shy from the rim and substrate is reasonably deep. That's 60.5 liters. Over a full ML syringe seems like an awful lot, so before I do this, are we certain that 100 MG/ML is a standard strength? I've been Googling for an hour and have found little regarding dosage rates for aquariums. In fact, I'm seeing the exact same text copied over and over mostly.

For what it's worth, all inhabitants look healthy and active at the moment but I can't assume that this disease is at bay just from changing out most of the water.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is online now  
post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-12-2019, 07:50 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,175
I don't know about Baytril but another alternative is Oregano flakes and/or oregano oil (carvacrol)

Quote:
Oregano Oil (Carvacrol 83%) diluted in distilled water at roughly one drop of Oregano oil to 90 drops of water (90 drops = roughly 4.5ml). Higher concentration of Carvacrol oil will need less drops or more dilution.

A drop of this diluted oregano oil was added to an algae wafer and fed to the shrimp.

A few oregano flakes 5-8 , were also added to the tank.

This was repeated for the next 3 days.

Suggest performing this treatment with Oregano Oil in a quarantine tank, as oregano oil is antiseptic and could impact the beneficial bacteria in your tank/filter. A quarantine tank will also ensure that you are feeding the treated algae wafer to only the sick shrimp, and not healthy shrimp.

This is just one possible suggestion for treatment, there are others out there. The oregano was also used with hydrogen peroxide.
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
Zoidburg is offline  
post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 10:15 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Have 10% liquid Baytril in hand. It's 100 mg Enrofloxacin per ML. A 20 gallon aquarium is 75.7 liters, but I'll assume 16 gallons of actual water volume since the tank is a couple of inches shy from the rim and substrate is reasonably deep. That's 60.5 liters. Over a full ML syringe seems like an awful lot, so before I do this, are we certain that 100 MG/ML is a standard strength?
Apologies for the late reply. The info I found stated that the dosage strength was based on 25 mg/ml. Maybe because it was a different country and regulations differ? Anyhow, hope this will help for future reference. Do let us know how they get along after treatment. It would be nice to confirm positive results because I've seen how quickly an entire tank can go down when that milky abdomen starts showing up. I'm more proactive these days by keeping water temps low and by providing lots of aeration in my tanks, along with feeding probiotic foods with strains like bacillus subtilis in it. These things help but are by no means a definitive solution.
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
madcrafted is offline  
post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 11:03 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
Apologies for the late reply. The info I found stated that the dosage strength was based on 25 mg/ml. Maybe because it was a different country and regulations differ? Anyhow, hope this will help for future reference. Do let us know how they get along after treatment. It would be nice to confirm positive results because I've seen how quickly an entire tank can go down when that milky abdomen starts showing up. I'm more proactive these days by keeping water temps low and by providing lots of aeration in my tanks, along with feeding probiotic foods with strains like bacillus subtilis in it. These things help but are by no means a definitive solution.
May I ask what shrimp foods contain this strain of bacillus subtilis?

Do you have air-stones in all your tanks?
Thank you.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-14-2019, 11:27 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 667
Without being an expert in this hobby or knowing much at all, I will say this. I started a thread on my shrimp that showed signs of infection and though I cannot confirm it from your pictures, necrosis in my tank presented differently. Does the white area gradually move up the shrimps body?
I treated with maracyn 2 as suggested by our resident experts, @Zoidburg and @somewhatshocked , and to my knowledge it has stopped further infection. I cannot say 100% that it is gone, but after removing and euthanizing the shrimp beyond the point of return, I have not seen any progression of the disease. I actually decided to risk leaving some shrimp in the tank that have had the disease and have a quarter of their body turned white, their tail end. The disease has not worsened in them, so I speculate that it has been stopped.
(Note: I know it was stupid leaving these shrimp in, but a few were heavily berried and I didnt want to remove my most productive shrimp)

The reason I am saying this is only due to diagnosis, my shrimp looked different is all. But, if it is muscular necrosis, I personally had good luck with the maracyn 2 and water changes.

Hope you can figure it out Chip! Best of luck!!!
Blue Ridge Reef and Discusluv like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-15-2019, 12:14 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
May I ask what shrimp foods contain this strain of bacillus subtilis?

Do you have air-stones in all your tanks?
Thank you.
There are many powder type food products that you can use use for probiotic benefits such as sl magic powder or bacter ae but some foods contain a dried fermentation powder such as ken's veggie sticks, or pretty much any of the foods he carries. They're very inexpensive as well. There's also dried natto powder which is basically just fermented soybeans and contains lots of this strain. I've used this as a component in bacteria "bags" along with a few other things that slowly decompose and promote biofilm. This is more for a larger colony breeding tank though. Most hobbyist just sprinkle a little magic powder or bacter ae and call it a day.

I use air stones to drive my floor matten filters (my own design based on partial UGFs that many of the Taiwanese breeders use). There is a constant mist of fine bubbles floating around my tank at all times. Under slight magnification it almost looks like CO2 injection. These filters each receive about 3 LPM of air each driven by a linear piston pump, so plenty of flow. The air stones I use are made by ziss and can be tightened or loosened to adjust bubble size. I keep mine pretty tight for finer bubbles but not so tight they clog easily. Here's a pic of I took of first row of tanks I converted over the summer while they were cycling...

Blue Ridge Reef and Discusluv like this.
madcrafted is offline  
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-15-2019, 01:12 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
There are many powder type food products that you can use use for probiotic benefits such as sl magic powder or bacter ae but some foods contain a dried fermentation powder such as ken's veggie sticks, or pretty much any of the foods he carries. They're very inexpensive as well. There's also dried natto powder which is basically just fermented soybeans and contains lots of this strain. I've used this as a component in bacteria "bags" along with a few other things that slowly decompose and promote biofilm. This is more for a larger colony breeding tank though. Most hobbyist just sprinkle a little magic powder or bacter ae and call it a day.

I use air stones to drive my floor matten filters (my own design based on partial UGFs that many of the Taiwanese breeders use). There is a constant mist of fine bubbles floating around my tank at all times. Under slight magnification it almost looks like CO2 injection. These filters each receive about 3 LPM of air each driven by a linear piston pump, so plenty of flow. The air stones I use are made by ziss and can be tightened or loosened to adjust bubble size. I keep mine pretty tight for finer bubbles but not so tight they clog easily. Here's a pic of I took of first row of tanks I converted over the summer while they were cycling...

Excellent, thank you


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is online now  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-16-2019, 03:13 AM
Newbie
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Florida
Posts: 1
I am intrigued. I was reading this thread because I have had similar events with my shrimp, but I have never seen a "floor" matten filter. How is that arranged and how is it working out for you?
sceleste54 is offline  
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-17-2019, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo33 View Post
Does the white area gradually move up the shrimps body?
It's impossible to say. Over three months I've seen exactly one sick shrimp. The ones I found dead appeared like any other dead shrimp. But even going over every living shrimp in the tank with a lens, I can see nothing to indicate the presence of disease in any since I photographed this one.

I was holding off on the Baytril for two reasons. I wasn't clear on the strength, and no shrimp appeared sick. Nor do they yet. I examine this tank every day, and if there's another body, I'll dose it right away now that I know the correct concentration. Shrimp in the tank currently seem healthy and several are berried. In the meantime I'm upping water changes to daily. In doing so, I've removed pretty much all of the 1/4" of organic potting soil the tanks were started with. But I'm also considering that using soil may have been an responsible for releasing organics and contributing to this issue. It's been a method I've used for the last 10 years and considered tried and true, but on any shrimp tanks going forward I'll just stick to inert substrate. The plants seem to appreciate it but these are shrimp tanks above planted tanks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo33 View Post
Hope you can figure it out Chip! Best of luck!!!
Thanks. I'll keep you guys updated. I suspect that if any should die, I'll know it by having a siphon in there every day for the next few weeks. Obviously I'll start Baytril at the first death should any occur.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is online now  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 12-17-2019, 05:28 PM
Planted Member
 
ursamajor's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 164
I think it's a good idea to hold off on the antibiotics, since we don't know if there's a bacterial infection present. From your description it doesn't really sound like there's an infectious agent sweeping the tank. My understanding is molting issues speak more to water parameters and diet. Maybe there's a slight excess of protein in the diet?
Blue Ridge Reef and Zoidburg like this.

Everything flows.
ursamajor is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome