Berried shrimp all die - The Planted Tank Forum
 14Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Berried shrimp all die

Well its not hard to decipher what's going on here. Every single berried shrimp has died and I just cannot believe it.
Starter with 20 blue dream velvets from aquatic arts and am now down to probably less than 10. The deaths have been very very slow and spaced out. 1 a week maybe. However, males tend to be okay.
This is in my high tech tank, the tank I want to move them all to before an entire loss is still cycling, so yes I'll be trying to save them. But I just want to hear suggestions.
Tds 230
DGh 8 to 9
Dkh 1 to 2
Ph 6.8 degassed, high 5s low 6s full co2


Co2 is injected and I understand that with low kh etc I could have a crash and theres merit to that, but also...1 death a week? I'm not convinced.

I have read that berried females should not molt often, so I have tried to change to 2 25% water changes per week rather than 1 50%, reduces shock etc.

Gurus?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 02:49 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Willcooper's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 930
Iím sure someone else will chime in but I wonder if itís the acidic water. I would aim for a ph of 6.5 or higher after co2. You could accomplish this by adding more kh source to get your degassed water up to a ph of 7.5 and inject down to 6.5. Using tap water? If so, consider using ro that you mineralize to a kh of 5 or 6 and a gh of 10 plus with ca/mg. May not be the problem but based on info provided that would be what I would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Willcooper is offline  
post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willcooper View Post
I’m sure someone else will chime in but I wonder if it’s the acidic water. I would aim for a ph of 6.5 or higher after co2. You could accomplish this by adding more kh source to get your degassed water up to a ph of 7.5 and inject down to 6.5. Using tap water? If so, consider using ro that you mineralize to a kh of 5 or 6 and a gh of 10 plus with ca/mg. May not be the problem but based on info provided that would be what I would do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey mate,
I am already using RO and SS kh/gh +, I think the issue comes in when I have ADA and that buffer reduces the Kh down. Essentially I'd be fighting my soul for kh.

Understandable though, I will be trying to create better parameters in my low tech shrimp tank. But just trying to gauge what thoughts are on this.
Thank you!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
 
post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 04:28 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Willcooper's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 930
In your current set up I would keep caridina such as crystal reds or blacks or blue bolts if itís the blue you are after. Still not sure if thatís the reason of berried shrimp death but your parameters seem better suited for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Willcooper is offline  
post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willcooper View Post
In your current set up I would keep caridina such as crystal reds or blacks or blue bolts if it’s the blue you are after. Still not sure if that’s the reason of berried shrimp death but your parameters seem better suited for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed, I have probably made a mistake with the neos. If I completely fail here I will look I to getting caridinas instead.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 05:49 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (39/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 352
Do you think you are feeding them adequately / they are getting enough food to eat?

Also, are the females dying w the eggs still on them or are they dumping their eggs and then dying?

To me, a 1 death a week chronic process of only berried females sounds like a chronic environmental stressor like starvation or chronic stress by light vs attempted predation.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

ADA 120P, DoAqua 90P, ADA 60P, ADA 30C x2, ADA 45P, ADA Mini-M
ced281 is online now  
post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by ced281 View Post
Do you think you are feeding them adequately / they are getting enough food to eat?

Also, are the females dying w the eggs still on them or are they dumping their eggs and then dying?

To me, a 1 death a week chronic process of only berried females sounds like a chronic environmental stressor like starvation or chronic stress by light vs attempted predation.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
They should be very well fed. Bacter ae 3x per week. Shrimp pellets, algae wafers, supplemental blanched veggies. I hope they are starved. Some fish flake in there too.
No predation, only housed with 10 cory habrosus, almost the same size as them.
Stress, probably a factor I agree...just not sure why.

Should be noted that I kept this batch of eggs in a container with an air bubbler. Here's hoping, but I doubt anything will come of it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:25 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo33 View Post
I am already using RO and SS kh/gh +, I think the issue comes in when I have ADA and that buffer reduces the Kh down. Essentially I'd be fighting my soul for kh.

That's the main problem - with ADA, you can have 0 dKH. When you try to increase it, you are causing a KH bounce that is harmful to any livestock. PH below 6 is too low for any shrimp species - I'd recommend cutting back on the CO2, especially since barely any of what you inject will be buffered with such a low KH. Also consider gas exchange (surface agitation), and whether you are allowing enough oxygen to be diffused and CO2 to be off-gassed when needed.
mgeorges likes this.
Quicksilver2299 is offline  
post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver2299 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo33 View Post
I am already using RO and SS kh/gh +, I think the issue comes in when I have ADA and that buffer reduces the Kh down. Essentially I'd be fighting my soul for kh.

That's the main problem - with ADA, you can have 0 dKH. When you try to increase it, you are causing a KH bounce that is harmful to any livestock. PH below 6 is too low for any shrimp species - I'd recommend cutting back on the CO2, especially since barely any of what you inject will be buffered with such a low KH. Also consider gas exchange (surface agitation), and whether you are allowing enough oxygen to be diffused and CO2 to be off-gassed when needed.
I'm thinking this tank just simply isn't compatible with shrimp. Which is fine, once I get this other tanks cycle complete.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 09:17 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamo33 View Post
I'm thinking this tank just simply isn't compatible with shrimp. Which is fine, once I get this other tanks cycle complete.

I'm convinced that if you just stop using the GH/KH+ and cut back on the CO2 a tad, you could keep them in there without further losses. You could switch to either just GH+ or Seachem Equilibrium, which would just raise the GH w/o affecting the KH. But, considering that you've already lost a bunch, I understand that you'd rather just play it safe and start fresh. I'd probably do the same.
CllCrg34 likes this.
Quicksilver2299 is offline  
post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 09:52 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
mgeorges's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Shawnee, KS
Posts: 1,244
@Jamo33 There's a couple problems -
I agree with Quicksilver. You're adding a good amount of KH, which then gets buffered out by your substrate, causing a shift in parameters, which the shrimp do not appreciate. This is also wrecking the buffering capacity of your expensive substrate very quickly. Just buffering GH might help, but I'd steer well clear of your typical boosters high in K, such as Equilibrium. I've personally experienced problems with inverts and high K levels, your plants will also appreciate lower levels. SS GH+ or even something like CaSO4 and MgSO4 would be better.

Neo's do prefer to be kept in non-buffering substrates, PFS or the like is ideal with 8+ dGH and 4 dKH.

pH is probably too low for their liking. Mid to low 6's is alright, in my experience, but 5's puts you well out of their comfort zone.

AA is not known for high survival rate...I ordered 20 RCS a couple years ago, zero survivors at the month mark. Bad news. If they were tank raised shrimp, that changes things. Not sure whether yours were imports or TR.

Are you 100% certain they're berried vs ellobiopsidae?
natemcnutty likes this.
mgeorges is online now  
post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeorges View Post
@Jamo33 There's a couple problems -
I agree with Quicksilver. You're adding a good amount of KH, which then gets buffered out by your substrate, causing a shift in parameters, which the shrimp do not appreciate. This is also wrecking the buffering capacity of your expensive substrate very quickly. Just buffering GH might help, but I'd steer well clear of your typical boosters high in K, such as Equilibrium. I've personally experienced problems with inverts and high K levels, your plants will also appreciate lower levels. SS GH+ or even something like CaSO4 and MgSO4 would be better.

Neo's do prefer to be kept in non-buffering substrates, PFS or the like is ideal with 8+ dGH and 4 dKH.

pH is probably too low for their liking. Mid to low 6's is alright, in my experience, but 5's puts you well out of their comfort zone.

AA is not known for high survival rate...I ordered 20 RCS a couple years ago, zero survivors at the month mark. Bad news. If they were tank raised shrimp, that changes things. Not sure whether yours were imports or TR.

Are you 100% certain they're berried vs ellobiopsidae?
Well, that kind sounds like I'm not in a great spot. I didnt want to buy shrimp to kill them all, and I suppose I've been too rash with my decisions without enough research.
I can mess around with a mixture of tap and RO to find some nice numbers?
I have aqua soil in my about to cycle shrimp tank as well...should I switch it out to a different substrate? Without co2 there wont be such large ph swings so I may have better luck?
I want to be successful with these shrimp, but I am also hoping to keep some nice plants as well. Kinda struggling here.

Yeah 100% eggs as well. Thank fully!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 01:05 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2,433
1.) You bought from Aquatic Arts (I have a feeling that imported Neos might do better in Caridina parameters, so wouldn't necessarily recommend putting them on a non-buffering substrate - just changing your minerals)
2.) You are using KH on a soil that should have 0 KH
3.) You might be over-feeding Bacter AE
4.) Shrimp pellets and algae wafers may contain too much protein - their diet should be algae based. Many "algae wafers" don't even have algae within the top 5+ ingredients! Throw in the fish food... well, just too much protein
5.) The CO2 might be an issue


Re: Shrimp in low pH.... there are people keeping shrimp in tanks where the pH is in the 5's and I might have heard of someone even keeping shrimp in a tank in the high 4's???


Since this was brought up.... I had to check my own tank... lol

SL-Aqua buffering substrate, RO water and GH minerals. Prior to changing out the substrate, the pH probably was around 7.5 ish. The API kit registers a 6 pH now, and it's brand new. I've had the kit for less than a week. I then used my Sera kit to test the pH and it's saying about 5.5 pH? Tank has Bloody Mary, Yellow King Kong, and a Caridina Sp (looks like amanos, but not). All were in the tank prior to switching out the substrate. I did not acclimate them or even let the tank settle.... I literally emptied the tank out, rinsed it with cold water, scrubbed 3 walls, threw in the new substrate, refilled with remineralized RO water and GH minerals with plants, then dumped the shrimp back in. I only know for sure that I've lost one shrimp, and it was a Caridina Sp. (the not-amano).

I've been struggling with Neos, regardless of where I get them or what type (Cherry, Yellow, Bloody Mary...), what water I keep them in (straight tap kills them, RO and minerals didn't really improve survival after trying remineralized tap - diet change did work until two separate people unintentionally killed off several shrimp within 3 weeks....) so if I lost them then I lost them. So far, the bloody mary are still doing okay as far as I can tell. It's been at least 3 weeks since I changed out the substrate.


So take that as you will...
mgeorges likes this.
Zoidburg is online now  
post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Jamo33's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
1.) You bought from Aquatic Arts (I have a feeling that imported Neos might do better in Caridina parameters, so wouldn't necessarily recommend putting them on a non-buffering substrate - just changing your minerals)
2.) You are using KH on a soil that should have 0 KH
3.) You might be over-feeding Bacter AE
4.) Shrimp pellets and algae wafers may contain too much protein - their diet should be algae based. Many "algae wafers" don't even have algae within the top 5+ ingredients! Throw in the fish food... well, just too much protein
5.) The CO2 might be an issue


Re: Shrimp in low pH.... there are people keeping shrimp in tanks where the pH is in the 5's and I might have heard of someone even keeping shrimp in a tank in the high 4's???


Since this was brought up.... I had to check my own tank... lol

SL-Aqua buffering substrate, RO water and GH minerals. Prior to changing out the substrate, the pH probably was around 7.5 ish. The API kit registers a 6 pH now, and it's brand new. I've had the kit for less than a week. I then used my Sera kit to test the pH and it's saying about 5.5 pH? Tank has Bloody Mary, Yellow King Kong, and a Caridina Sp (looks like amanos, but not). All were in the tank prior to switching out the substrate. I did not acclimate them or even let the tank settle.... I literally emptied the tank out, rinsed it with cold water, scrubbed 3 walls, threw in the new substrate, refilled with remineralized RO water and GH minerals with plants, then dumped the shrimp back in. I only know for sure that I've lost one shrimp, and it was a Caridina Sp. (the not-amano).

I've been struggling with Neos, regardless of where I get them or what type (Cherry, Yellow, Bloody Mary...), what water I keep them in (straight tap kills them, RO and minerals didn't really improve survival after trying remineralized tap - diet change did work until two separate people unintentionally killed off several shrimp within 3 weeks....) so if I lost them then I lost them. So far, the bloody mary are still doing okay as far as I can tell. It's been at least 3 weeks since I changed out the substrate.


So take that as you will...
Okay, taking this all in as I can. I'm a quick study, but water parameters have this domino effect that I sometimes do not consider fully.
I am going to buy some SS GH+ and start using that as my remineraliser.
I know that I can keep shrimp on ADA, I just think I've chosen the wrong species. I should aim for some caridina as they will be better suited to the soft water.
I will lay off on the protein stacked foods, any suggestions on what I should use as a staple food. A food I could feed daily without harm if I needed to.

Seems like your substrate change went pretty well in reality, I'd expect some decent losses coming from a full change like that.
Once again, this is my high tech, so basically it's for the plants not shrimp. But I still just want the most info I can get to see why I am being so unsuccessful.

I appreciate all the advice by the way everyone. This has quickly become one of my main aqua goals, to be successful with breeding shrimp.
Zoidburg likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Jamo33 is offline  
post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 01:38 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 2,433
The Caridina will be better suited for the low pH. The GH is too high for them unless you're talking tiger species. Bloody Mary are Neocaridina. They *can* survive in low pH as well.

You want an algae/vegetable based diet. Some people have had success just increasing the amount of vegetables fed to their shrimp.

I had great success with food from OMGAquatics, but I don't see them selling their food anymore... I also have algae pellets (no protein) from Kens Fish. I can't say it's better... I also have a lot of shrimp food, some of which I'll probably never feed. (Fluval Shrimp Granules? Turns yellow shrimp green...)


And yeah, I was expecting more losses. Maybe I have had them and I just haven't seen the dead bodies? I think I did at least try to keep the GH and TDS around the same, even though the KH and pH were changing. I was using SS GH/KH before, currently have Aqualex (SL-Aqua) GH+ for shrimp.



I'd honestly suggest keeping the shrimp in the tank but convert the water over to GH+ only minerals through several water changes, tweak the diet some (you can still feed Bacter AE, just make sure it's a really tiny amount! and if the other foods you have do contain animal protein, then cut back on those and feed more algae/vegetable based foods) and maybe tweak the CO2 a bit. Let tank settle and see how they do.
Zoidburg is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome