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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:00 AM Thread Starter
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@Zoidburg

Well I will do my best. I'll swap over to the GH+ and hopefully that will help some. I shall adjust my feedings as well. Blanched veggies will hopefully entice them a bit more than they previously have.
I feel like I would love to try all these different shrimp foods, but I cant afford to just dump money on it all. Maybe if my shrimp bred as I could sell some Haha

Co2 is something I am afraid of messi g with too much. My tank seems to be in a bit of pain with algae as is right now and I'm really trying to dial it all in...with no success of course. But I guess that's my own stupid fault.

Are you breeding your shrimp successfully?


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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:05 AM
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I can mess around with a mixture of tap and RO to find some nice numbers?
Unless your tap has no KH, which isn't very likely, you're still dealing with the same issue. Tap water can also vary seasonally.
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I have aqua soil in my about to cycle shrimp tank as well...should I switch it out to a different substrate? Without co2 there wont be such large ph swings so I may have better luck?
I want to be successful with these shrimp, but I am also hoping to keep some nice plants as well. Kinda struggling here.

Yeah 100% eggs as well. Thank fully!
I, personally, would switch it to something totally inert. I've done Neo's on buffering subs, it didn't go well. When I had them on straight PFS, colony rapidly exploded from 20 ish to over 60 in a 10 gallon. I've succeeded in keeping neo's in high tech tanks with ~30 ppm of CO2, you just need to keep things very stable and consistent. RO helps with this, and remineralizing to the same TDS using SS will be beneficial.

An important note for RO - does your water district add chloramine? An RO alone will not completely remove chloramine, even with blocks rated to do so. I run RODI with two Universal Carbon blocks, which are effective against chloramine, but I still add a bit of Prime to my water every time. Any bypass of chloramine is very bad for shrimp.

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Re: Shrimp in low pH.... there are people keeping shrimp in tanks where the pH is in the 5's and I might have heard of someone even keeping shrimp in a tank in the high 4's???


Since this was brought up.... I had to check my own tank... lol
I stand corrected. Neo's in that low of pH seems crazy, but if you're pulling it off, I can't argue with that! Haha. I've gone into low 6's, but that was strictly CO2 driven with an off gas pH closer to 7.4-7.6.

Your point about food though is an important one, and you helped me with that. I've been using Ken's Fish veggie sticks and NLS algae wafers. Good stuff. In a well established tank, you only need to feed a couple times a week as there is plenty of biofilm for them to feast on.
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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:26 AM Thread Starter
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Good point. Tap will not work then.


As far as substrate, I dont think I will be swapping it in this tank, but I certainly could in my smaller shrimp tank. I will consider this for sure.
I only have RO, not DI. I will start adding prime to my water changes as well.

I think I just have overall stability issues causing havoc in this tank aswell.

I will be trying to fix these issues. But I dont think I will be able to save my neos in time. And if I do, all females will most likely be lost.


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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 03:11 AM
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Your tank is not stable which stresses shrimp. They like stable kH and TDS.
I hope you can get them out before the rest die.
Way too many guesses in here for my liking.


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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Your tank is not stable which stresses shrimp. They like stable kH and TDS.
I hope you can get them out before the rest die.
Way too many guesses in here for my liking.
Thanks mate, how do we think I am going to be able to find some stability?
I hope I can save them as well.


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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:23 PM
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Thanks mate, how do we think I am going to be able to find some stability?
I hope I can save them as well.
You've received a lot of good advice here. A good starting place if you don't wish to switch to an inert substrate is to start using the SS GH+ you've ordered and see if things improve. It really sounds to me like your biggest parameter stability issues right now are being caused by the substrate fighting what you're adding, so getting rid of KH addition should help tremendously. Remineralize to a GH of 8, that's a good level for both plants and Neo's. I'd specifically test GH in your RO first as you're adding powder, then see where your target GH puts you TDS wise, and then in the future you can just add powder until you reach the target TDS. I know the SS dissolves rapidly, I'd let the water sit for a while though before testing GH, just to make sure it's totally dissolved so you get the most accurate results. You could also lower CO2 if you think that's possibly an issue.

Running high-tech with shrimp is a balancing act. Shrimp do not like large water changes because they do not like parameter shifts. With high tech, we're typically looking at 50%+ weekly water changes. It's generally recommended with shrimp to do 10% weekly or every other week. I've done 50% weekly with shrimp, and though they did well at the time, I'm sure they would have done better with smaller, less frequent changes, and my baby survival rate would've been higher. I think there's some trade offs that should be expected.
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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:38 PM
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I can mess around with a mixture of tap and RO to find some nice numbers?
Don't mix in tap water - it's almost guaranteed to have some KH that will further the KH bounce problem with the substrate.


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I'd honestly suggest keeping the shrimp in the tank but convert the water over to GH+ only minerals through several water changes, tweak the diet some (you can still feed Bacter AE, just make sure it's a really tiny amount! and if the other foods you have do contain animal protein, then cut back on those and feed more algae/vegetable based foods) and maybe tweak the CO2 a bit. Let tank settle and see how they do.

Agreed
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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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You've received a lot of good advice here. A good starting place if you don't wish to switch to an inert substrate is to start using the SS GH+ you've ordered and see if things improve. It really sounds to me like your biggest parameter stability issues right now are being caused by the substrate fighting what you're adding, so getting rid of KH addition should help tremendously. Remineralize to a GH of 8, that's a good level for both plants and Neo's. I'd specifically test GH in your RO first as you're adding powder, then see where your target GH puts you TDS wise, and then in the future you can just add powder until you reach the target TDS. I know the SS dissolves rapidly, I'd let the water sit for a while though before testing GH, just to make sure it's totally dissolved so you get the most accurate results. You could also lower CO2 if you think that's possibly an issue.

Running high-tech with shrimp is a balancing act. Shrimp do not like large water changes because they do not like parameter shifts. With high tech, we're typically looking at 50%+ weekly water changes. It's generally recommended with shrimp to do 10% weekly or every other week. I've done 50% weekly with shrimp, and though they did well at the time, I'm sure they would have done better with smaller, less frequent changes, and my baby survival rate would've been higher. I think there's some trade offs that should be expected.
I will begin with SS GH+ as soon as it arrives. Honestly this has taken a huge hit to my confidence, I've never failed at keeping anything alive this terribly. I want to do well, but it seems this batch of shrimp is most likely destined to fail.

I am learning a lot and will try everything I can, bar affecting my plants. I just cant see reason in ruining everything I have going, even though my plants are covered in algae and probably about to die as well.

I'll do what I can.
Big thank you to everyone, you are all awesome.
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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 06:45 PM
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I'm wondering if overfeeding Bacter AE might be the problem as well. I had 1/2 of my CRS colony die off slowly (1 every 2-3 days) shortly after I started dosing Bacter AE despite perfect water parameters and frequent water changes. Once I stopped using Bacter AE, the deaths stopped. It's just a correlation but I think the extra protein in the food may have caused molting issues that led to the deaths.
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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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I'm wondering if overfeeding Bacter AE might be the problem as well. I had 1/2 of my CRS colony die off slowly (1 every 2-3 days) shortly after I started dosing Bacter AE despite perfect water parameters and frequent water changes. Once I stopped using Bacter AE, the deaths stopped. It's just a correlation but I think the extra protein in the food may have caused molting issues that led to the deaths.
I have read multiple peoples posts about bacterAE killing their shrimp. I have also read an equal amount of people who swear by it. I think the answer may be somewhat simple with food. Everything in moderation, feed a balanced diet. But this is something to consider as well, thank you


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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 09:07 PM
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I have read multiple peoples posts about bacterAE killing their shrimp. I have also read an equal amount of people who swear by it. I think the answer may be somewhat simple with food. Everything in moderation, feed a balanced diet. But this is something to consider as well, thank you
Shrimp barely need to be fed, especially in a planted tank with even traces of algae. Overfeeding kills them faster than under.

You are not going to isolate variables in your current tank and neither has the person giving you their anecdotes.

Buffered Substrate, fluctating kH, fluctuating TDS, those are known to stress shrimp. Stressing shrimp doesn't mean you kill them, they can adapt but you aren't going to ever know how well.

Bottom line you won't know what is killing your shrimp until they are in their own tank where you hardly touch the water or parameters, don't add CO2 and have everything stable, and even then you are changing their water parameters from old to new ank and some could die in the new tank anyway. However they are easy to breed so if the new tank has no fish and good water conditions they will breed and the babies born in that tank water will be much more resistant.

People keep neos with 50% water changes, CO2, buffered substrates, but its always a case by case and often depends on the quality of the stock. Its much easier to eliminate the potential stressors and not to add variables you don't have to like unecessary additives.


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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 02:23 AM
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I feel like I would love to try all these different shrimp foods, but I cant afford to just dump money on it all. Maybe if my shrimp bred as I could sell some Haha

Co2 is something I am afraid of messi g with too much. My tank seems to be in a bit of pain with algae as is right now and I'm really trying to dial it all in...with no success of course. But I guess that's my own stupid fault.

Are you breeding your shrimp successfully?
I honestly wonder now how good much of the "shrimp food" out there really is? And does it matter if the protein source is animal or bug related? I mean, blood worms are supposed to be high in protein but the package says they aren't... and feeding too much of those can cause shrimp to die off. Shrimp King uses flies/insects as a protein source... vs many others use some sort of fish as protein source.

Re: Algae - often caused by too much nutrients in the water column, too much light, or? Definitely try putting the lights on a timer to be on for 3-4 hours, off for 2-4 hours and back on for 3-4 hours. If you work, you could have the lights come on shortly before you wake up, then turn off after you leave for work, then turn back on before you get home from work or sometime later in the evening.

Also, try introducing more fast growing plants to the tank and/or floating plants. Plants are better at utilizing energy (photosynthesizing) than algae is, so can easily out-compete algae for nutrients. (just some ideas)

As far as the shrimp goes???? That depends on what type you are referring to... The Caridina sp aren't really breeding, but then again I'm not sure if I have males since they all seem to be females. It looks like there *is* a male in there, but I haven't seen any eggs from them in a while. They breed like amanos which basically means that they are difficult to raise. The YKK? I have at least two berried females. I've already had two batches of eggs hatch since getting the shrimp, which honestly isn't a lot... but they were young juvies/sub-adults and once they were old enough it was winter... so there really wasn't much breeding to speak of. There might be a third berried female, but can't confirm unless I see them all together or at the same time.

The bloody mary? Not so much... they're pretty much juvies/sub-adults, so no breeding going on... the only time that I had truly good success with shrimp breeding and thriving was when I first started feeding the food from OMGAquatics and before two people destroyed my shrimp colonies within 3 weeks. I had a different YKK colony back then, and they bred prolifically! Plus cherry shrimp in a different tank. I have yet to have success with a thriving population of bloody mary... cherry colony hasn't recovered... still some breeding but colony isn't going... probably doesn't help that there's some mixed guppies/endlers in tank that were only supposed to be in there temporarily... several months back.



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I, personally, would switch it to something totally inert. I've done Neo's on buffering subs, it didn't go well. When I had them on straight PFS, colony rapidly exploded from 20 ish to over 60 in a 10 gallon. I've succeeded in keeping neo's in high tech tanks with ~30 ppm of CO2, you just need to keep things very stable and consistent. RO helps with this, and remineralizing to the same TDS using SS will be beneficial.

I stand corrected. Neo's in that low of pH seems crazy, but if you're pulling it off, I can't argue with that! Haha. I've gone into low 6's, but that was strictly CO2 driven with an off gas pH closer to 7.4-7.6.

Your point about food though is an important one, and you helped me with that. I've been using Ken's Fish veggie sticks and NLS algae wafers. Good stuff. In a well established tank, you only need to feed a couple times a week as there is plenty of biofilm for them to feast on.
If these shrimp were not imports, I would agree with putting them on inert substrate. Since they *ARE* imports, I recommend keeping the tank as is, just changing out the minerals. For whatever reason, imports seem to do better in Caridina parameters from what I've seen of other peoples experiences.

Now, if I can get the Neos to breed, then I will call it a success! If they die off, well, I'm pretty much at the point that I don't expect them to survive anyway.... I would like to get some more to give it one last chance... but I might just be one of those people that, regardless of what I do, I just can't successfully keep Neos.


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I will begin with SS GH+ as soon as it arrives. Honestly this has taken a huge hit to my confidence, I've never failed at keeping anything alive this terribly. I want to do well, but it seems this batch of shrimp is most likely destined to fail.

I am learning a lot and will try everything I can, bar affecting my plants. I just cant see reason in ruining everything I have going, even though my plants are covered in algae and probably about to die as well.
If it makes you feel any better, I've been trying to successfully keep a thriving population of Neos since 2016. (2015 if we count before I took over taking care of shrimp... and then learning about GH/KH, TDS, etc). It's disheartening to see all these people who have had Neos for 3-6 months start selling off their colony because they have too many and here I am struggling to keep a colony of 50-100 shrimp... which I wouldn't be surprised if that colony is now around 20-40....

Like I mentioned though, I'd like to give it one more try with BM before I call it quits for good.

Last edited by Zoidburg; 04-13-2019 at 02:24 AM. Reason: .
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 01:51 PM
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What u should have done when first getting the shrimp - test the water they came in and do a super slow acclimation if the values are very different.
What u can do now: Start water change with RO + SS GH+. Turn off CO2, turn down lights.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 06:58 AM
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One problem with RO water is that it is often cleaner than the cleanest streams and rivers. This can cause problems. The nutrients plants need are well known. However if you look at the nutrients animals need there are some major differences. Animals need sodium and iodine, selenium, cobalt, and possibly bromine. Now plants can grow and reproduce without out these minerals. However if the water, substrate, and food don't have these the health of the shrimp can suffer.

I myself have seen iodine deficiency in my RO tank. I added iodine and my blue dream shrimp recovered Quickly. Another person posted on this forum about the continuing loss of snails int his tank. He got advice but it didn't resolve the situation. He eventually decided to switch from potassium bicarbonate to Sodium Bicarbonate to see if that an effect. He reported back hat it did. After the switch he had no snail losses.

Female shrimp might be more susceptible to this problem. When the female make the eggs the parent will loose nutrients. Now normally in the wild that would get this back from the water or food they eat. But in the man made conditions of an aquarium they might not get enough to recover and later die.

I would recommend you try adding salt sodium chloride or use sodium bicarbonate to control your KH. many aquarium products today use potassium bicarbonate. If you use table salt I would try starting at 1ppm. Additionally there are a small number of plants that do need sodium. They are called C4 plants. Dwarf Hair grass is one.

As to iodine you could buy seachem iodine and follow the instructions to dose to a level of 0.01ppm. Note I have measured iodine levels up to 0.1ppm and observed no noticeable effects. Another option is to purchase iodine Tencture or Lugols iodine (2%) which contains potassium iodide. Do not get the none staining type which has no iodine in it. One drop per 10 gallons should be enough.As to selenium, cobalt, and bromine I have not done anything with them.

Note while I did have shrimp in the past (blue dream, amino, and Singapore flower shrimp) I currently don't have any at this time. A tank crash killed everything I had. But I am planning to restock the tank soon. Also I did purchase my blue dream and amino shrimp from Aquatic arts. They appeared healthy when they arrived and i lost no shrimp after putting them in the tank. The biggest problem I had with shrimp was preventing my fish from eating them.
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Last edited by Surf; 04-14-2019 at 07:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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