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post #61 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 01:29 AM Thread Starter
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@Edward @cl3537

Guys, I am new to the aqua game. You two, Opinion and half the others that have messaged on this thread know more about freshwater, saltwater and Aquatic life then I do and I have learned a lot from all of you. I made this thread just to ask A question about my shrimp tank (That still hasn't been touched on btw haha) and it has turned into something pretty cool. I haven't had much success but I have had definitely more than others and I want that number to increase and nail down how to breed these things with the fewest casualties, We all do. This is a hard topic to understand since a lot of experiments need to be done and it takes months to do them, A lot of chemistry applies along with intuitive and counter intuitive methods. There is no judgement in brainstorming or having a opinion. There is no judgement in mistakes. Lets try to not get defensive if we are questioned and lets try to have thicker skin and stay constructive Really appreciate everyone's input on this thread, I have learned a lot.

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I'd stick with all 34ppt, but use a larger container. I would test Ammonia and Nitrite every 5 days.
I'd also use one container seeded with algae and aged water for a few weeks, grow it by the window sill.
I agree and think the 34 ppt is the way to go but Edward does have a good point and the numbers he presented make me want to give 30ppt a try. To everyone that hasn't done it or hasn't had a single survivor I urge them to do exactly what I have originally explained but now I am going to throw some experiments in

I just want to learn. I appreciate everyone who teaches.
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post #62 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by symstep View Post

I agree and think the 34 ppt is the way to go but Edward does have a good point and the numbers he presented make me want to give 30ppt a try. To everyone that hasn't done it or hasn't had a single survivor I urge them to do exactly what I have originally explained but now I am going to throw some experiments in
Best of luck with the experiments I will be following with interest to see how they turn out.

I'd much rather copy someone who has demonstrated success than someone playing armchair academic who doesn't breed shrimp.
You could have dozens of jars and try many different parameters, but if it was me I'd focus on slight variations from what has been reported to work.

"THE ISSUE OF SALINITY
There is some controversy surrounding what the optimal salinity is for the developing larvae. Hayashi & Hamano report total failure to survive in salinities up to and including 8.5 ppt; optimal survival at 17 ppt (80% survival rate); and suboptimal survival (11%) at salinities up to 35 ppt (full marine salinity). This is quite different from what I found, with zero survival at salinities lower than 25 ppt, suboptimal survival at 25 ppt (3 larvae, out of at least 200, survived for four weeks without metamorphosing at which point the attempt was aborted), and high survival at 30-35 ppt (an estimated 80% reaching postlarval stage). Other people who’ve experimented with salinities have come to the same conclusion: any salinity below 30 ppt or over 35 ppt will result in heavy mysid-stage larval losses!
"

https://gabhar.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/breeding-amano/

"Alternatively losses might be avoided by lowering salinity to 17 ppt when the first larvae start to metamorphose."

What you might try(or research further) is adding freshwater and lower salinity after the first full metamorphose.
Its not clear to me if end stage larvae and fry will survive better in lower salinity or not.

It has been stated that the fry will die within 48 hours if left in 30+ ppt water so it would seem best to remove the fry to freshwater as soon as it is clear they are fully changed but will they be better off staying in 17 ppt water until the rest of the batch are fully morphed is unclear.
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Last edited by cl3537; 04-15-2019 at 06:08 PM. Reason: ...
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post #63 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
What you might try(or research further) is adding freshwater and lower salinity after the first full metamorphose.
Its not clear to me if end stage larvae and fry will survive better in lower salinity or not.

Fair comment, and good option. I think?



If you're running a single batch/clutch of eggs from a single female, this is worth pursuing. But in my mind (others also, I suspect), a perfect setup would allow zoes from multiple females to go into a single zoe rearing setup. Meaning you'd always have zoes reaching metamorphosis, and dropping salinity for some might be fatal to the younger ones. So you either remove individual zoes as they metamorphose, and gradually desalinate the water for each group -- maybe having too many groups to manage this well -- or you keep a single batch in a single setup, and desalinate all together. [thinking...] The problem with that is that you'll likely kill your marine algae/diatoms before too long.



What I might try to work out is a partial removal of water from the zoe rearing jar (including algae and diatoms) which then gets used to jump start the next saltwater jar for the next batch of zoes. Then lower salinity the original rearing jar (with the pre and post metamorphosis zoes/juvies) to say 17ppt, and then gradually to fresh when most/all have metamorphosed. Or something like that. Maybe. I hope.

@symstep your original question was tankmates for the post-metamorphosis shrimps, right? Looking for a predator to control the 'uglies' that won't eat the tiny amanos? Sorry man, I got nothin'.
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post #64 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 09:42 PM
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Having more water is a bit forgiving and I used a 1~ gallon tank. If they survive week to week, I'll change half of it. I did recall changing water weekly.

I would also say you should do your experiments on conditions when you have repeated success with large batches.

I saw Chappy's video, they are pretty brown with diatoms but even he says some die offs. Mine ends up having green algae take over. Maybe that's a sign on when I should do water changes.
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post #65 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 05:52 AM
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I read from someone else that they used the red disposable cups to "acclimate" the shrimp over a period of several days.... so one cup would be at least 75% saltwater (or whatever they were raised in) to 25% fresh, then 50/50, then 25/75 before going into freshwater. Personally though, I'd rather use something clear.. but the shrimp remained in the cups for at least a day before being moved into another container... so that's always an option.
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post #66 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 01:54 PM
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I transitioned then in some clear dollar tree 2oz containers overnight in 50% FW/SW then in the morning I did a 50% WC making it approx 75% FW to 25% SW and then dumped them into full FW a few hours later It didn't take days for me, overnight then 3-4 hours was enough to go in full FW, I lost none out of 20~.

Though I've had someone msg me they lost the entire batch during the FW transition so I'm not sure why that is the case.
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post #67 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
Best of luck with the experiments I will be following with interest to see how they turn out.

I'd much rather copy someone who has demonstrated success than someone playing armchair academic who doesn't breed shrimp.
You could have dozens of jars and try many different parameters, but if it was me I'd focus on slight variations from what has been reported to work.

"THE ISSUE OF SALINITY
There is some controversy surrounding what the optimal salinity is for the developing larvae. Hayashi & Hamano report total failure to survive in salinities up to and including 8.5 ppt; optimal survival at 17 ppt (80% survival rate); and suboptimal survival (11%) at salinities up to 35 ppt (full marine salinity). This is quite different from what I found, with zero survival at salinities lower than 25 ppt, suboptimal survival at 25 ppt (3 larvae, out of at least 200, survived for four weeks without metamorphosing at which point the attempt was aborted), and high survival at 30-35 ppt (an estimated 80% reaching postlarval stage). Other people who’ve experimented with salinities have come to the same conclusion: any salinity below 30 ppt or over 35 ppt will result in heavy mysid-stage larval losses!
"

https://gabhar.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/breeding-amano/

"Alternatively losses might be avoided by lowering salinity to 17 ppt when the first larvae start to metamorphose."

What you might try(or research further) is adding freshwater and lower salinity after the first full metamorphose.
Its not clear to me if end stage larvae and fry will survive better in lower salinity or not.

It has been stated that the fry will die within 48 hours if left in 30+ ppt water so it would seem best to remove the fry to freshwater as soon as it is clear they are fully changed but will they be better off staying in 17 ppt water until the rest of the batch are fully morphed is unclear.
Yes they need to get into freshwater pretty soon after full metamorphosis. I just syringe them out individually since I don't want to harm the ones that are weeks behind and also I am not bored with it yet. But if you got to a point where you were doing a thousand at a time I could see experimenting with just lowing the entire batches ppt opposed to individually trying to catch 50+ a day haha good idea to consider tho if things get that real.

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post #68 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OpinionUnFiltered View Post
Fair comment, and good option. I think?



If you're running a single batch/clutch of eggs from a single female, this is worth pursuing. But in my mind (others also, I suspect), a perfect setup would allow zoes from multiple females to go into a single zoe rearing setup. Meaning you'd always have zoes reaching metamorphosis, and dropping salinity for some might be fatal to the younger ones. So you either remove individual zoes as they metamorphose, and gradually desalinate the water for each group -- maybe having too many groups to manage this well -- or you keep a single batch in a single setup, and desalinate all together. [thinking...] The problem with that is that you'll likely kill your marine algae/diatoms before too long.



What I might try to work out is a partial removal of water from the zoe rearing jar (including algae and diatoms) which then gets used to jump start the next saltwater jar for the next batch of zoes. Then lower salinity the original rearing jar (with the pre and post metamorphosis zoes/juvies) to say 17ppt, and then gradually to fresh when most/all have metamorphosed. Or something like that. Maybe. I hope.

@symstep your original question was tankmates for the post-metamorphosis shrimps, right? Looking for a predator to control the 'uglies' that won't eat the tiny amanos? Sorry man, I got nothin'.
yeah so if you really don't want to individually catch the morphed shrimp and drip fresh water (changing from 34ppt to 0ppt in 3-4 hours) and want to experiment with lowering the entire ppt slowly, you would need to have each batch separate from others to create less difference in timeline.Also this could kill some of the ones that are far behind and also if you lower the ppt too slow then you could kill the morphed ones... This should only be considered if its really that unrealistic to individually catch them. My opinion.
Also thank you for touching on my original question I want to experiment with this but it involves potentially sacrifices a amano

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post #69 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mach_six View Post
Having more water is a bit forgiving and I used a 1~ gallon tank. If they survive week to week, I'll change half of it. I did recall changing water weekly.

I would also say you should do your experiments on conditions when you have repeated success with large batches.

I saw Chappy's video, they are pretty brown with diatoms but even he says some die offs. Mine ends up having green algae take over. Maybe that's a sign on when I should do water changes.
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but isn't the point of experimenting is looking for repeated success with large batches? But I want my numbers to increase and I am excited to first try to figure out if there is a difference in ones that follow light opposed to ones that don't.

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post #70 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
I read from someone else that they used the red disposable cups to "acclimate" the shrimp over a period of several days.... so one cup would be at least 75% saltwater (or whatever they were raised in) to 25% fresh, then 50/50, then 25/75 before going into freshwater. Personally though, I'd rather use something clear.. but the shrimp remained in the cups for at least a day before being moved into another container... so that's always an option.
Yes I acclimated mine in jars for 3-4 hours and have had no deaths after metamorphosis except one. One had morphed but was still orange in color and I transitioned him just to see and as I assumed he died So that's why in my original post I said you must have at least the new morph and the new color before transitioning.

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I transitioned then in some clear dollar tree 2oz containers overnight in 50% FW/SW then in the morning I did a 50% WC making it approx 75% FW to 25% SW and then dumped them into full FW a few hours later It didn't take days for me, overnight then 3-4 hours was enough to go in full FW, I lost none out of 20~.

Though I've had someone msg me they lost the entire batch during the FW transition so I'm not sure why that is the case.
Exactly man, In my experience this is by far the easiest part. The person that said they lost a batch must have not waited until the orange color was gone which I believe happens 24 hours after the body change. Metamorphosis isn't in a few hours and they all don't morph around the same time.
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post #71 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 07:53 PM
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I've thrown some into a tank with around 13 ppt and no survivors. Granted, I don't recall now if these were amanos or "not-amanos" (sold as amanos, but clearly not amanos). Didn't think they'd survive anyway.

Having said that, I do have a "not-amano" that's berried so I'd like to give it a try again, just need to set a tank back up. Have a tank with saltwater in it atm, but it needs to be dumped/refreshed, new light and air back onto the tank.
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post #72 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 09:12 PM
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I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but isn't the point of experimenting is looking for repeated success with large batches? But I want my numbers to increase and I am excited to first try to figure out if there is a difference in ones that follow light opposed to ones that don't.
I meant testing your jars in different salinity. A 24 hour light cycle test is fine though if nature doesn't have it then I am sure it's the lack of food in our tanks.

I think he uses 24 hr light because he doesn't prep the grow out tank ahead of time. He has a decent bubble rate which should be necessary to keep the algae floating.

I do recall some of my transitioned shrimps having some red that eventually faded while in 100% FW. Also when they transition to FW there's another morph that happens where they lose all those little legs to their 6 legs.

I can save you the test of dropping it in straight to FW, it will shock it and probably die within minutes. It came back to life when I put it back to the 50/50 mix.
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post #73 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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I've thrown some into a tank with around 13 ppt and no survivors. Granted, I don't recall now if these were amanos or "not-amanos" (sold as amanos, but clearly not amanos). Didn't think they'd survive anyway.

Having said that, I do have a "not-amano" that's berried so I'd like to give it a try again, just need to set a tank back up. Have a tank with saltwater in it atm, but it needs to be dumped/refreshed, new light and air back onto the tank.
What is a not amano? Can you explain with a picture or a link?

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I meant testing your jars in different salinity. A 24 hour light cycle test is fine though if nature doesn't have it then I am sure it's the lack of food in our tanks.

I think he uses 24 hr light because he doesn't prep the grow out tank ahead of time. He has a decent bubble rate which should be necessary to keep the algae floating.

I do recall some of my transitioned shrimps having some red that eventually faded while in 100% FW. Also when they transition to FW there's another morph that happens where they lose all those little legs to their 6 legs.

I can save you the test of dropping it in straight to FW, it will shock it and probably die within minutes. It came back to life when I put it back to the 50/50 mix.
Are you sure you transitioned it while still orange or was it silver and then after transition became this color from becoming ill? I've learned from research and my one experiment haha is to not do that. Also pretty great the one survived after returning him to some salt water.

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post #74 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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I've thrown some into a tank with around 13 ppt and no survivors. Granted, I don't recall now if these were amanos or "not-amanos" (sold as amanos, but clearly not amanos). Didn't think they'd survive anyway.

Having said that, I do have a "not-amano" that's berried so I'd like to give it a try again, just need to set a tank back up. Have a tank with saltwater in it atm, but it needs to be dumped/refreshed, new light and air back onto the tank.
''These 'Taimanos' are identified by two features: the first being their shorter, compact rostrum, and the second being their inherent laziness. Supposedly, these false shrimp also breed entirely in freshwater, which is something that C. multidentata do not do. But aside from that they have the same, nondescript colours and similar markings.

There are even hints of an Indonesian variant doing the rounds, but these are also contested on a species level; they have a straight rostrum and not a crested one. Buyers beware, and be diligent. True Amano shrimp should be relentless workers, and thatís exactly what fuels their popularity.''


(SMH)

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post #75 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 12:04 AM
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What is a not amano? Can you explain with a picture or a link?
For sure! To start... this thread....

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...no-shrimp.html

In short... I've been told they are....

C. typus
C. formosae
C. villadolidi

They are sold as C. multidentata (amanos) but people who are familiar enough with amanos know they are not amanos. They appear closest to C. typus (Australian Amano) but not quite... and there might be some other version of them? (of C. typus) So far, for me at least, they are smaller than amanos but still large shrimp, and they are "fatter" (body wise) than amanos. Other people say they are larger than amanos. At least one person has had one turn completely brown despite having the same coloration as the ones I have. Mine have remained clear to a clear brown color.


Attached is a recent picture of the berried female.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Not-Amano.jpg
Views:	15
Size:	317.9 KB
ID:	880749



I simply call them "not amanos" because I honestly don't know what else to call them! That or just "Caridina sp".

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''These 'Taimanos' are identified by two features: the first being their shorter, compact rostrum, and the second being their inherent laziness. Supposedly, these false shrimp also breed entirely in freshwater, which is something that C. multidentata do not do. But aside from that they have the same, nondescript colours and similar markings.

There are even hints of an Indonesian variant doing the rounds, but these are also contested on a species level; they have a straight rostrum and not a crested one. Buyers beware, and be diligent. True Amano shrimp should be relentless workers, and thatís exactly what fuels their popularity.''


(SMH)
If this were so, then the offspring would have survived in my freshwater tank. They did not. They survived longer in saltwater.
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