Breeding Amano Shrimp - Page 4 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #46 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 10:21 PM
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This is not about FW but SW and nobody was discussing CO2 injection here. Healthy saltwater pH relies on atmospheric CO2, see post #39. This CO2 source is so weak it can take days of aeration to reach the final pH.

Remember you had difficulties understanding how I can have 1.55 pH drop with 13 ccm CO2 and 1.6 bps on 125 gallon aquarium? That was CO2 injection and it still takes over two days to get there. And then it remains stable.

symstep
The chart in post #39 demonstrates how critical pH is in terms of NH4 and NH3 concentrations. I think the selected dry sea salt product and specific gravity plays a significant role. The salt NaCl is harvested from ocean and then manufacturers add elements Ca, Mg, K, CO3 etc., so not all products are the same. For the purpose of raising shrimp larvae the most important is alkalinity. Noticed the difference between Red Sea Coral Pro Salt SPS Frags 35 ppt, 12 dKH and Red Sea Salt Marine Fish 30 ppt, 7 dKH? They don’t have the same ppt to KH ratio. When Red Sea Coral Pro Salt is mixed to 30 ppt it gives 10 dKH. But Red Sea Salt Marine Fish at the same 30 ppt is only 7 dKH.

I think the larvae should be raised in long term stable system in terms of algae and BB, and in lower ppt, lower KH and pH monitored.

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post #47 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Cl3537
This is not about FW but SW and nobody was discussing CO2 injection here. Healthy saltwater pH relies on atmospheric CO2, see post #39. This CO2 source is so weak it can take days of aeration to reach the final pH.

Remember you had difficulties understanding how I can have 1.55 pH drop with 13 ccm CO2 and 1.6 bps on 125 gallon aquarium? That was CO2 injection and it still takes over two days to get there. And then it remains stable.

symstep
The chart in post #39 demonstrates how critical pH is in terms of NH4 and NH3 concentrations. I think the selected dry sea salt product and specific gravity plays a significant role. The salt NaCl is harvested from ocean and then manufacturers add elements Ca, Mg, K, CO3 etc., so not all products are the same. For the purpose of raising shrimp larvae the most important is alkalinity. Noticed the difference between Red Sea Coral Pro Salt SPS Frags 35 ppt, 12 dKH and Red Sea Salt Marine Fish 30 ppt, 7 dKH? They don’t have the same ppt to KH ratio. When Red Sea Coral Pro Salt is mixed to 30 ppt it gives 10 dKH. But Red Sea Salt Marine Fish at the same 30 ppt is only 7 dKH.

I think the larvae should be raised in long term stable system in terms of algae and BB, and in lower ppt, lower KH and pH monitored.
Edward and cl3537.
Seems like you have history?
But yes everyone should learn the difference between NH3 and NH4. I learned that is a reason why its not as dangerous as you think to ship fish across the country. They deplete the oxygen and raise C02 levels which decreases PH making NH4>NH3. So you need to be careful and quick when you open the bag and introduce oxygen and release that built up CO2.


I get what you are putting down Edward. You have me trying to find a report on my salt I have been using but cant seem to find it Just want to really point out that the salt water does really need to sit for at lest 24 hours so don't add newly made water to the fry. Also this has me thinking... takshi amano allegedly said the fry should be in 17ppt. I have not come across anything on anyone being able to get success with this. Is it possible it's because he didn't do it himself, He just thought it should work because it works out that way on paper? But I have another batch about to happen in a week so is there a better way to test for dkh besides a 50 dollar contraption? Or I will just dump the salt I have now and go with the Red Sea Salt Marine Fish and hope that this change doesn't prevent success.

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Just realized I have a 6g Fluval Edge in a closet..... Now I wonder if I can get some SW rocks that would fit the mouth of that tank. LOL
Excellent you are thinking about going for it. Also glad you found your six gallon. I would normally direct you more into what set up to have but now I am thinking just go for it and lets so what happens lmao. I would like to see how the SW rocks work out so please be careful about what you do so we can speculate later GL!
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post #48 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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OpinionUnFiltered and Edward, My science guys.
New batch coming up.
Thinking Four Large mason jars
All jars having 24 hour light and having Red Sea Salt Marine Fish to use the info that Edward provided. Kept at room temp (I am suspicious to temp control especially at 78 degrees but will check room temp twice a day).
Jar 1- 34ppt, 20-30% WC daily
Jar 2- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days
Jar 3- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 2 weeks (Like chappy even tho it hurts)
Jar 4- 30ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days

Thoughts or opinions? Changes I should make to this round? I am focusing on water changes this round. Salinity next and then maybe temp.
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post #49 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by symstep View Post
OpinionUnFiltered and Edward, My science guys.
New batch coming up.
Thinking Four Large mason jars
All jars having 24 hour light and having Red Sea Salt Marine Fish to use the info that Edward provided. Kept at room temp (I am suspicious to temp control especially at 78 degrees but will check room temp twice a day).
Jar 1- 34ppt, 20-30% WC daily
Jar 2- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days
Jar 3- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 2 weeks (Like chappy even tho it hurts)
Jar 4- 30ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days

Thoughts or opinions? Changes I should make to this round? I am focusing on water changes this round. Salinity next and then maybe temp.
Jar 2 and 4 have a difference of 4ppt of salt, why not try the 17ppt of salt in one of the jars, or unless you have a 5th jar you can split the baby amano's into?

Also as I know I have amano's in my 125g tank, I was looking the amano's I can see over and they all look like they are males.... Guess time to go hunt down some more so I can get a few more ladies so I can start testing as well!

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post #50 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 08:10 PM
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Regarding salinity from T. Amano’s original work, I read one theory that there could be multiple strains or races of wild amanos, that are accustomed to slightly varying salinities. So his that worked out at 15-17 ppt might have been from a different population than what currently makes up most of the captive/sold stock. @symstep my suggestion if you want to run trials is to do two treatments or setups only, each replicated twice. So, stick with 34ppt, and do 2 jars daily, 2 others @5d.
Personally, I think having 4 separate treatments is making 4x as much work when it comes to testing salinity, and changes. Or 2x as much if I do as I suggest and split a batch anyways. But for me, I’d if I do split my next batch, I’ll treat both the same. My research days are long behind me, and I’m happy to now stick with intuition, and trial and error. 😉
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post #51 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by symstep View Post
OpinionUnFiltered and Edward, My science guys.
New batch coming up.
Thinking Four Large mason jars
All jars having 24 hour light and having Red Sea Salt Marine Fish to use the info that Edward provided. Kept at room temp (I am suspicious to temp control especially at 78 degrees but will check room temp twice a day).
Jar 1- 34ppt, 20-30% WC daily
Jar 2- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days
Jar 3- 34ppt, 20-30% WC every 2 weeks (Like chappy even tho it hurts)
Jar 4- 30ppt, 20-30% WC every 3-5 days

Thoughts or opinions? Changes I should make to this round? I am focusing on water changes this round. Salinity next and then maybe temp.
I'd stick with all 34ppt, but use a larger container. I would test Ammonia and Nitrite every 5 days.
I'd also use one container seeded with algae and aged water for a few weeks, grow it by the window sill.
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post #52 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-13-2019, 11:31 PM
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We’re all talking about ammonia levels, but does anyone have a test for it? The master FRESHWATER kit won’t help here.
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post #53 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 12:00 AM
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I don't like Red Sea salt, I threw the remaining half of the 50G bag mix away because it left too much residue behind in the bucket and was cloudy for more than a day mixing and never became clear. I'll stick with the cheaper Instant Ocean.

A higher temp should mean faster metabolism. I almost had a second success with a 2 that went more than 30 days but I think it was taking much longer to morph into different phases because the tank was unheated maybe about 50s F in my cold basement.

I didn't see the size of your jars but it should be at least 1G.

If anything, I'd test a tank with higher salinity if you're not keeping an eye on the water evaporation.
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post #54 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 02:04 AM
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We’re all talking about ammonia levels, but does anyone have a test for it? The master FRESHWATER kit won’t help here.
Actually I beleive the liquids are the same, just the color chart will be different and you can get that with google image search.
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post #55 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OpinionUnFiltered View Post
Regarding salinity from T. Amano’s original work, I read one theory that there could be multiple strains or races of wild amanos, that are accustomed to slightly varying salinities. So his that worked out at 15-17 ppt might have been from a different population than what currently makes up most of the captive/sold stock.
+1
This is why trying lower ppt is important, 30 ppt and possibly 25 ppt with following batches. Second reason is easier adaptation and less stress when changing specific gravity.
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We’re all talking about ammonia levels, but does anyone have a test for it? The master FRESHWATER kit won’t help here.
Total (NH3 + NH4) should be monitored with any marine test kit and the result used for water change timing.

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Just realized I have a 6g Fluval Edge in a closet..... Now I wonder if I can get some SW rocks that would fit the mouth of that tank. LOL
+1
An aquarium with established live rock, BB and algae covered glass should have the best chance.


As far as temperature I wouldn’t use any heaters for the reason of having even temperature across all containers. Additionally, I would use an electronic pH test pen to determine new water readiness, and also aeration effectiveness due to algae CO2 uptake. Tons of algae with 24 hour light can remove a lot of CO2 which can break water pH buffering balance.
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post #56 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 07:26 PM
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So I picked up a 10g tank and some lace rock at the local salty store. He said that lace rock doesn't work so well with coral, but does well with fish only type tanks, so I picked up several pieces, some salt, and a proper refractometer. However I got the salt and rocks basically for free due to a $10 gift card I got from my local DAS (Desert Aquarist Society) group meeting that I won as part of our monthly raffle. So sweet deal there as I'm sure it was honestly more than $10 worth of rock and salt I got. I'm going to HD to find a sheet of glass I can cut to size for the lid to try and reduce evaporation and salt creep as much as I can, while having just a all corner open for air tubing.

Not sure if I should stick with using a fine foam filter or just an airstone for the tank. Thoughts?

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post #57 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Cl3537
This is not about FW but SW and nobody was discussing CO2 injection here. Healthy saltwater pH relies on atmospheric CO2, see post #39. This CO2 source is so weak it can take days of aeration to reach the final pH.
Test the pH, 'days of aeration' is not always necessary.

Quote:
Remember you had difficulties understanding how I can have 1.55 pH drop with 13 ccm CO2 and 1.6 bps on 125 gallon aquarium? That was CO2 injection and it still takes over two days to get there. And then it remains stable.
The difficulty is how you explain yourself not what is 'possible'. I am not your opponent I have stood up for you on several occasions already including your pH graph do you remember? I don't know how 13ccm(what is ccm? ml/min?) = 1.6bps could you explain?

Quote:
symstep
The chart in post #39 demonstrates how critical pH is in terms of NH4 and NH3 concentrations.
I really think too much has been made of this particular point, you don't want NH3 or NH4 in measureable quantities in the larvae tank period and with sufficient BB, water volume, water changes and little to no feeding shouldn't have much if any.
Quote:
I think the larvae should be raised in long term stable system in terms of algae and BB, and in lower ppt, lower KH and pH monitored.
You keep mentioning lower ppt salt, but have you any experience breeding amanos that way? or any proof that is successful?
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post #58 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 10:46 PM
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Test the pH, 'days of aeration' is not always necessary.
+1
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I don't know how 13ccm(what is ccm? ml/min?) = 1.6bps could you explain?
By practical observation, please see How can I control injected CO2 quantity.
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I really think too much has been made of this particular point, you don't want NH3 or NH4 in measureable quantities in the larvae tank period and with sufficient BB, water volume, water changes and little to no feeding shouldn't have much if any.
I think this was worth mentioning because at 12 dKH and with reef sea salt mix the pH can go way over 8. Something we don’t experience in FW environment. Regular kitchen sea salt don’t have the same high pH risk as premixed reef salt.
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You keep mentioning lower ppt salt, but have you any experience breeding amanos that way?
No, do you have?
And I don’t see why it is necessary to use reef levels of 35 ppt and 12 dKH when marine fish can have 30 ppt and only 7 dKH. Lower KH lower NH3.
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… any proof that is successful?
Do you have any proof that it is not successful?

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post #59 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chayos00 View Post
Jar 2 and 4 have a difference of 4ppt of salt, why not try the 17ppt of salt in one of the jars, or unless you have a 5th jar you can split the baby amano's into?

Also as I know I have amano's in my 125g tank, I was looking the amano's I can see over and they all look like they are males.... Guess time to go hunt down some more so I can get a few more ladies so I can start testing as well!
A difference of 4 ppt will have a lower DKH which will help for having less NH3 (Based off of Edwards findings), Or it will be too low of a salinity and have no success.

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Originally Posted by OpinionUnFiltered View Post
Regarding salinity from T. Amano’s original work, I read one theory that there could be multiple strains or races of wild amanos, that are accustomed to slightly varying salinities. So his that worked out at 15-17 ppt might have been from a different population than what currently makes up most of the captive/sold stock. @symstep my suggestion if you want to run trials is to do two treatments or setups only, each replicated twice. So, stick with 34ppt, and do 2 jars daily, 2 others @5d.
Personally, I think having 4 separate treatments is making 4x as much work when it comes to testing salinity, and changes. Or 2x as much if I do as I suggest and split a batch anyways. But for me, I’d if I do split my next batch, I’ll treat both the same. My research days are long behind me, and I’m happy to now stick with intuition, and trial and error. 😉
Excellent theory for T amano. That would make the 17ppt make sense finally haha.
Is two jars of the same trail necessary? As long as parameters are kept up on it is really about sample size in fry not sample size in duplicated conditions? I do see the merit in it and would be good to have on paper but regardless I completely forgot what I have to do first. I need to split up the light followers from the non light followers.

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post #60 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 01:05 AM Thread Starter
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I don't like Red Sea salt, I threw the remaining half of the 50G bag mix away because it left too much residue behind in the bucket and was cloudy for more than a day mixing and never became clear. I'll stick with the cheaper Instant Ocean.

A higher temp should mean faster metabolism. I almost had a second success with a 2 that went more than 30 days but I think it was taking much longer to morph into different phases because the tank was unheated maybe about 50s F in my cold basement.

I didn't see the size of your jars but it should be at least 1G.

If anything, I'd test a tank with higher salinity if you're not keeping an eye on the water evaporation.
Why do you think it should be 1G? Also that sucks you experience with that salt sucks I use the instant ocean as well but cant find dkh info on it, If anyone can find that let me know.

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So I picked up a 10g tank and some lace rock at the local salty store. He said that lace rock doesn't work so well with coral, but does well with fish only type tanks, so I picked up several pieces, some salt, and a proper refractometer. However I got the salt and rocks basically for free due to a $10 gift card I got from my local DAS (Desert Aquarist Society) group meeting that I won as part of our monthly raffle. So sweet deal there as I'm sure it was honestly more than $10 worth of rock and salt I got. I'm going to HD to find a sheet of glass I can cut to size for the lid to try and reduce evaporation and salt creep as much as I can, while having just a all corner open for air tubing.

Not sure if I should stick with using a fine foam filter or just an airstone for the tank. Thoughts?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Nice set up! My opinion I would just use a air stone. The fry can swim but mainly float around aimlessly. Would be scared they would more so get pinned into the sponge. But Idk
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