Breeding Amano Shrimp - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 01:22 PM
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Congrats on having some success and thanks for coming to the thread! I checked out the video you have of the egg hatching and it was pretty cool to see it that clearly. So to clarify are you saying that the batch you had 20 survivors, you did not have 24 hour lighting? Assuming that you are referring to the topic of the fry dying if the lights are turned off (lights off, lights out haha). Also I am confused because it seems like you say you had the 20 survivors and batches afterwards was poor but then say the later batches were better? Or when you say more 100s you are meaning hatched eggs and not morphed shrimp? Anyways I completely agree with you on the egg count, Have read that the mother can hold thousands yet my mother looks pretty filled underneath and its like 300 so... Maybe we misread or have smaller shrimp? Also have you tried without live phyto? Again thank you for sharing the eggs hatching, I enjoyed watching that.
Sorry, I meant the collection of the larvae was much larger in later batches but they didn't survive.

It doesn't make sense to me that 24/7 light is really necessary other than to maintain your algae growth, they don't have 24/7 light in nature. I'm guessing in containers there's too little water movement possibly?
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post #32 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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My one successful go-round (I use 'success' sparingly here, because it was a highly limited success) I did not have 24hr light. I had good survival up to day 20-30 or so, and was feeding pinhead-sized amounts of brewers yeast, and lights were 6am-9pm, or so. I suspect the losses I encountered with that batch were related to salinity, and foul water.
Anyone else observe in Chappy's vids that his salt jars were quite messy? There seemed to be lots of detritus on the bottom of his salt jar.
Another thing that isn't discussed is whether the salt jars/tanks need to be a bit mature. I'd hazard to guess that it's not a requirement (because I had that limited success with a newly-set up jar), but I would also imagine that some level of maturity in those jars would be very beneficial. For those of you that have done this more than once, do you keep the same salt jar running, or start fresh with each batch?
Here's some quick pics of my setup. It's shockingly different from Symstep's.
Mach_Six you might recognize these from that other forum.
The 3 jars in the water bath tank are (left to right): 1 gal salt jar for zoes; "experiment" salt jar with a bunch of algae from the live rock tank at lfs (1L mason jar, no air), reserve saltwater jar, for next water change (1L mason jar, lid to prevent evap).
No man you have had success! But how many fry did you have in the batch that had 20 survivors? I am regardless going to experiment here at some point with this light claim, especially since maybe you would have had more survivors if you didn't turn off the light? I love your set up, it is perfect. I had my jars in a lined bin during the winter but I hated it so since winter is over it has been put away. You gave me the idea to just buy a 10 gallon to temp control in the winter tho, Will be much more convenient then what I was using even tho it was free. Let me ask what exactly happens to salt water the more it matures?

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Sorry, I meant the collection of the larvae was much larger in later batches but they didn't survive.

It doesn't make sense to me that 24/7 light is really necessary other than to maintain your algae growth, they don't have 24/7 light in nature. I'm guessing in containers there's too little water movement possibly?
Ok but still cool you got 20! But I know right, My first thought is that they obviously experience night in the wild but then I thought that maybe the reflection of the sun off the moon still provides a certain amount of par? So I just have no idea if turning off the light decrease chances. We will eventually figure it out.

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post #33 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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I did a 20-30% water change every 3-5 days to try to compensate for salinity fluctuation (plus adding water based on the line I made to compensate for evaporation), ammonia made from the fry and the seeded algae decomposing that I added until it took off.
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Seeded algae, Only 20-30 percent water change at most every 3-5 days and keep up on your salinity.
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20-30 percent water changes every few days, …
What is the reason for limiting water changes so much? If it was fish fry I would be changing water daily and as much as possible to avoid NH3 poisoning.
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post #34 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 05:20 PM
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No man you have had success! But how many fry did you have in the batch that had 20 survivors?
I think you're mixing me up with Mach_six. I had 5 that survived to metamorphosis (and all were successfully returned to freshwater).



Edward your question about water changes is a good one. I'm not advocating fewer water changes, but there are two mitigating factors, IMO. These zoes are incredibly small, so I would imagine than ammonia buildup would be very slow*. Also, the zoes being so small - and generally spending their time floating in the water column - means special measures are required to not suck them up during water changes. So a bit of a PITA. But, it's certainly one more thing that I'd like to resolve, over time. On paper, more changes should be better.



* I just did some rabbit-hole diving on the web, and have realized how much more toxic ammonia will be in saltwater vs fresh (ie how much of the total ammonia is toxic ammonium). In a saltwater tank, most/all of the ammonia will be toxic ammonium, as opposed to much much smaller proportions in most planted tanks. I also read a suggestion on the Spruce https://www.thesprucepets.com/ammoni...ariums-2924171 that simply changing water is NOT the answer, as it would be in fresh. First neutralize/remove ammonia, then change water. Hmmm.
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post #35 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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What is the reason for limiting water changes so much? If it was fish fry I would be changing water daily and as much as possible to avoid NH3 poisoning.
You didn't have to quote it three times lmao But honestly just for the simple reason of everyday water changes is not what we have seen for success. For one If you are not putting anything in the water then NH3 is limited to only what the fry produce and what algae doesn't take. The guy that has more claimed success than anyone so far did 25% every two weeks. I've had success doing every 3-5 days so that establishes a range for people who are not having success or haven't tried at all. I said "no more than" to the future scientist because I feel he was going a little crazy on all fronts and trying to slow him down, just in case it is possible that the water you ad has a slight difference in salinity and temp etc. very slight but maybe noticeable for a super small fry. You exposing them to a slight difference everyday may be exhausting for them opposed to it slowly changing. Or there isn't a difference. Or it would be better and failing is due to other variables. Idk this isn't nailed down and a lot of experiments need to be done. I am not to opposed of course to more water changes like I am adding this plankton that everyone talks about. But again saying if you are not having success at all and not doing what I did then try what I did. Sorry wasn't a easy answer for my thinking. Appreciate the contribution to the thread and I am glad that this specific aspect has been clarified
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post #36 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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I think you're mixing me up with Mach_six. I had 5 that survived to metamorphosis (and all were successfully returned to freshwater).



Edward your question about water changes is a good one. I'm not advocating fewer water changes, but there are two mitigating factors, IMO. These zoes are incredibly small, so I would imagine than ammonia buildup would be very slow*. Also, the zoes being so small - and generally spending their time floating in the water column - means special measures are required to not suck them up during water changes. So a bit of a PITA. But, it's certainly one more thing that I'd like to resolve, over time. On paper, more changes should be better.



* I just did some rabbit-hole diving on the web, and have realized how much more toxic ammonia will be in saltwater vs fresh (ie how much of the total ammonia is toxic ammonium). In a saltwater tank, most/all of the ammonia will be toxic ammonium, as opposed to much much smaller proportions in most planted tanks. I also read a suggestion on the Spruce https://www.thesprucepets.com/ammoni...ariums-2924171 that simply changing water is NOT the answer, as it would be in fresh. First neutralize/remove ammonia, then change water. Hmmm.
Yeah I definitely know you by name but I did mix up how many survivors you have had, sorry about that haha It's been a lot keeping up with this plus my usual schedule.
As for the the water change, I was aware when carbon dioxide levels increase/oxygen decreases the ph drops and makes ammonia less harmful but never read into this happening with salt water from "buffering". But it seems like this has something to do with you saying the salt water matures?

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post #37 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 12:51 AM
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The successful batch I had of 20~ was a 95% success rate. I had only manage to capture a small amount and and the only death was because I accidentally drop one into another tank below it during the FW transition.
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post #38 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 11:14 AM
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Yeah I definitely know you by name but I did mix up how many survivors you have had, sorry about that haha It's been a lot keeping up with this plus my usual schedule.
As for the the water change, I was aware when carbon dioxide levels increase/oxygen decreases the ph drops and makes ammonia less harmful but never read into this happening with salt water from "buffering". But it seems like this has something to do with you saying the salt water matures?
I think maybe you're inferring a single conversation, but I'm describing 2 things: 1) ammonia, and 2) jar/tank maturity.

1)
[errors have been corrected by writer - how embarrassing ]
I'm finding as I figure this out that it's backwards from how I usually think about (at least in my mind, which is sort of backwards to start with, so no longer sure which way we're facing LOL). In our/my fw tanks, more CO2 reduces pH, and more of the TAN (total ammonia nitrogen - ie what the master test kit measures) becomes less-toxic NH4+ ammonium. As pH rises (and temp), the proportion of TAN that is NH3 more-toxic ammonia increases. But as I read it yesterday (look at me, the instant expert), at the high pH levels that are typical in saltwater, most/all of the TAN will be NH3.

Being rooted in the fw world, I'm used to taking the liquid ammonia test readings with a grain of salt (pun intended). I'm less interested in TAN results, and more interested in combining that with temp and pH to know what NH3 levels are, and if it's approaching 0.05ppm. But what I'm getting here (ie with respect to the zoe saltwater jars) is that ANY ammonia will be bad, since most/all will be NH3. So my guess is that my prior overfeeding is way more important than I had thought. Bad me.

So now I think I have a better understanding of why little to no feeding is a big part of the success that some have had.
Second part of this part of the ammonia puzzle (for me) is that IF you have ammonia, then UNLIKE fw world, water changes aren't necessarily the go-to solution. As I understand it, ammonia, like CO2, will lower pH. Meaning some of the NH3 coverts back to NH4+. Changing water will restore pH to higher level, causing some of the NH4+ remaining in tank to covert to NH3. So bad. The recommended course of action here is to neutralize/remove the ammonia first, then change water.

A prior contributor to this thread mentioned using the seachem alert badge to detect ammonia, and I think that's a bang-on suggestion, because it ONLY detects the NH3. I had previously bought some Poly-Fill as an early attempt to lower P04s in my planted tanks. Still have some, and I'm told it will bind the ammonium in the salt jar, so I'll likely put a tiny square in if I start seeing losses.

2)

Your second question, about maturing saltwater. I don't think that aging straight (newly mixed) saltwater more than 24 hrs is necessary. But the jar I will be keeping the zoes in has been running for maybe 6 weeks now, and has a more mature or seasoned community of algae, which I hope will be a good thing.

Whew.
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post #39 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:37 PM
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Reference
“Freshly prepared synthetic seawater is very caustic (capable of burning or corroding), so it will need some time to “cure” before it can be used in your aquarium. Allow the newly mixed seawater to sit in your container for a minimum of 24 hours before use. During that time, place an airstone or powerhead in the water to circulate and aerate the mixture.”
Reference

At first this doesn’t look serious but once the numbers are revealed (theoretically), it is fairly reasonable to age and aerate freshly made saltwater. Here are few examples;

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt, SPS Frags, 35 ppt, 12 dKH:
11.6 pH fresh and degassed CO2
8.0 - 8.1 pH aged and aerated
Reference

Red Sea Salt, Marine Fish, 30 ppt, 7 dKH:
11.6 pH fresh and degassed CO2
7.7 - 7.9 pH aged and aerated
Reference

I think better survival rates may be achieved in larger water volume for stability, more actively growing algae for waste removal and more aeration for low pH value. Increasing nitrogen levels from waste stimulate faster algae growth which creates higher demand for CO2. This higher demand for CO2 can let pH go up which converts less harmful NH4 to toxic NH3 when aeration is insufficient.

Chart
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Name:	NH3-NH4 equlibrium.png
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ID:	880443  

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post #40 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 02:51 PM
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Edward thank you for the added information and reference. In re-reading my post above yours (mine is #38) I realize that I have - not for the first time - mixed up which form of ammonia is toxic. I got the conversion part right, but not the toxicity. Oy.
I will edit my post above in a way that it's clear what has been corrected.
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post #41 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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I think maybe you're inferring a single conversation, but I'm describing 2 things: 1) ammonia, and 2) jar/tank maturity.

1)
[errors have been corrected by writer - how embarrassing ]
I'm finding as I figure this out that it's backwards from how I usually think about (at least in my mind, which is sort of backwards to start with, so no longer sure which way we're facing LOL). In our/my fw tanks, more CO2 reduces pH, and more of the TAN (total ammonia nitrogen - ie what the master test kit measures) becomes less-toxic NH4+ ammonium. As pH rises (and temp), the proportion of TAN that is NH3 more-toxic ammonia increases. But as I read it yesterday (look at me, the instant expert), at the high pH levels that are typical in saltwater, most/all of the TAN will be NH3.

Being rooted in the fw world, I'm used to taking the liquid ammonia test readings with a grain of salt (pun intended). I'm less interested in TAN results, and more interested in combining that with temp and pH to know what NH3 levels are, and if it's approaching 0.05ppm. But what I'm getting here (ie with respect to the zoe saltwater jars) is that ANY ammonia will be bad, since most/all will be NH3. So my guess is that my prior overfeeding is way more important than I had thought. Bad me.

So now I think I have a better understanding of why little to no feeding is a big part of the success that some have had.
Second part of this part of the ammonia puzzle (for me) is that IF you have ammonia, then UNLIKE fw world, water changes aren't necessarily the go-to solution. As I understand it, ammonia, like CO2, will lower pH. Meaning some of the NH3 coverts back to NH4+. Changing water will restore pH to higher level, causing some of the NH4+ remaining in tank to covert to NH3. So bad. The recommended course of action here is to neutralize/remove the ammonia first, then change water.

A prior contributor to this thread mentioned using the seachem alert badge to detect ammonia, and I think that's a bang-on suggestion, because it ONLY detects the NH3. I had previously bought some Poly-Fill as an early attempt to lower P04s in my planted tanks. Still have some, and I'm told it will bind the ammonium in the salt jar, so I'll likely put a tiny square in if I start seeing losses.

2)

Your second question, about maturing saltwater. I don't think that aging straight (newly mixed) saltwater more than 24 hrs is necessary. But the jar I will be keeping the zoes in has been running for maybe 6 weeks now, and has a more mature or seasoned community of algae, which I hope will be a good thing.

Whew.
Whew is right my man! Yes was combining the two wondering if before the salt water matures the ph may be higher in addition to the water change increasing ph? You are the instant expert/future scientist haha very impressed that the water change topic (which was a great question) that I had landed on was more of intuition and you found the exact science to it. Your contribution to this thread has been tremendous.

1- I think you got it man. I think the key is to not put anything into the water that you don't have to. Also you have to consider that algae will take in ammonia as well, by the end of a batch I can't see through the jars anymore and have to look through the top. I am interested in the Poly-Fill you are talking about tho, If you try that please let me know what happens. Let me make a suggestion tho, Please get more jars. Then you can try a few of the million things you want to try while having a control Also there may be weaker fry that will not survive regardless, So just because you start counting less in your jar does not mean its time to react. just try to syringe the dead out before they decompose.
Another thing is temp. I assume you are keeping your jars at 78 degrees yes? Is it possible that this is to high for the fry? since temp raises ph?

2 - I just let it sit for a day to make sure all the salt melted and the gas exchange had its way with the water... Eye roll.

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Reference
“Freshly prepared synthetic seawater is very caustic (capable of burning or corroding), so it will need some time to “cure” before it can be used in your aquarium. Allow the newly mixed seawater to sit in your container for a minimum of 24 hours before use. During that time, place an airstone or powerhead in the water to circulate and aerate the mixture.”
Reference

At first this doesn’t look serious but once the numbers are revealed (theoretically), it is fairly reasonable to age and aerate freshly made saltwater. Here are few examples;

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt, SPS Frags, 35 ppt, 12 dKH:
11.6 pH fresh and degassed CO2
8.0 - 8.1 pH aged and aerated
Reference

Red Sea Salt, Marine Fish, 30 ppt, 7 dKH:
11.6 pH fresh and degassed CO2
7.7 - 7.9 pH aged and aerated
Reference

I think better survival rates may be achieved in larger water volume for stability, more actively growing algae for waste removal and more aeration for low pH value. Increasing nitrogen levels from waste stimulate faster algae growth which creates higher demand for CO2. This higher demand for CO2 can let pH go up which converts less harmful NH4 to toxic NH3 when aeration is insufficient.

Chart
Very nice Edward! So before the water matures the ph is higher. So a huge no would be adding freshly made salt water to a batch of fry that have been existing in a jar already.
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post #42 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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Edward thank you for the added information and reference. In re-reading my post above yours (mine is #38) I realize that I have - not for the first time - mixed up which form of ammonia is toxic. I got the conversion part right, but not the toxicity. Oy.
I will edit my post above in a way that it's clear what has been corrected.
It's all good man! you are crushing it. I have a question for you tho. Wtf do we call these shrimp babies? I've heard Fry, Zoes, Larvae, shrimplets and more. What is the correct name?
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post #43 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 06:42 PM
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I went to look at tanks last night at the local big box fish store. I didn't any any tanks, as I was looking at the pre-packaged AIO setups, most had lids that were wide open for their specific HOB filters, plus three tiny little LED's, which I would suspect wouldn't be enough to grow some proper algae. I then saw a T8 lid light combo that was the same price as the AIO tanks and thought to myself I might just get a 10g tank and then a glass lid and just find a small 18" T8 light fixture at HD or Lowes and DIY it all. Not sure still debating about this. 5g or 10g, at least a 10g would give more algae room to grow and also being a larger water volume more room to maintain a more stable body of water. Also a bit more space for a few pieces of live rock and some macros and or micro algae.

10g tank - $14
10g Lid - $13
Light - $??

AIO Tanks
5.5g - $40
10g - $65

I'm now wondering if I should just attempt to try my spare Finnex Planted+ 16" light on this SW setup to see how well that would grow algae. Or something SW specific.

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post #44 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 08:56 PM
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Salt_Mix_Reef_Salt_Mix-Red_Sea-RS11055-FISM-vi.html"]Reference[/URL]

I think better survival rates may be achieved in larger water volume for stability,
This for sure. Smaller as a %water changes. Whats wrong with a 5 Gallon cycled (foam on air bubbler) plastic container for larvae?

Quote:
more actively growing algae for waste removal
Why not grow it beforehand like have quite a bit from a month before in an aged container?
Quote:
and more aeration for low pH value. Increasing nitrogen levels from waste stimulate faster algae growth which creates higher demand for CO2. This higher demand for CO2 can let pH go up which converts less harmful NH4 to toxic NH3 when aeration is insufficient.
Why is CO2 even discussed here? Not going to add CO2 to larvae tank??

General questions for everyone. Why aren't you testing your larvae tank and measuring Ammonia? If more than 0.25 why not do water changes with same/similar temperaure TDS/kH water. Even daily 10 - 20% changes?
I'm not a shrimp breeder but this thread is so interesting and creates possibilities, I'd like to figure out these questions before I would attempt to breed amanos.

I wish more shrimp keepers were meticulous about documenting their setup and water parameters so we could get more repeatable results. I gotta think 4 - 5 gallons of aged water with a decent amount of algae and bb, it can't be too hard to keep low/0 ammonia especially if you aren't adding any.


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post #45 of 155 (permalink) Old 04-12-2019, 09:55 PM
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Just realized I have a 6g Fluval Edge in a closet..... Now I wonder if I can get some SW rocks that would fit the mouth of that tank. LOL

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