RO water and cuddlebone? Shrimp dying?! - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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RO water and cuddlebone? Shrimp dying?!

I have a a 6 gal fluval edge tank that I had about a couple dozen RCS in. I had been losing them and found it was due to my water softener.

Fast forward to now, I have been using RO water and I add salty shrimp gh+/kh+ and my water parameters have been solid and steady at:

ph - 7.8
KH - 5*
GH - 6*
Ammonia - ~ 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - ~ <5.0 ppm
TDS - ~ 175-185ish ppm

I am pulling my hair out here. I don't know what else to do. I've bought copper tests that's always zero, I have a Calcium Ca2+ test kit for saltwater tanks but have no idea what that should read in freshwater. I have no clue why they keep dying and at this point I'm about to throw in the towel. I've kept 100's of fish in far less conditions than the way I've pampered these shrimp with zero problems.

Do I need to put some cuddle bone in my fter or something? Won't that raise my gh and kh though? I just don't know what to do.

I have about a week to get this stuff figured out before I start summer semester, then my time is really limited because I work full time and go to school full time.

Please send help. Lol..

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 09:11 PM
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Based on your parameters, you seem to be doing everything right. Unless water temperature was way out there or they starved due to lack of food/biofilm, I doubt it's due to any fault of yours. Salty shrimp makes good products, I use their bee shrimp GH+ myself. Sometimes we just get unhealthy shrimp. Importation process can be very stressful, especially if they weren't quarantined by the breeder/seller. Do you happen to know the water parameters of the place you purchased the shrimp?
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 09:13 PM
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Other than salty shrimp what other items do you put in the water, fertilizers, water conditioners etc? Som calcium test kits designed for fresh water may work just fine in fresh water So please list the number you get from this test. Also when you say copper always read zero, what is the minimum no zero reading it can generator 1, 10, or 100ppb or something else? Please not shrimp like most animals do need some copper in the water. IF your fertilizer doesn't have copper you may need to add it. Also are you feeding and if so what. Or are the shrimp shrimp or feeding on the biofilm and algae in the tank?

Also does the container list the ingredients in the salty shrimp? If so please list them. There are two common ingredients used to boost KH potassium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Recently one person posted that he had problems keeping any snails or shrimp alive in his tank. He found that by switching from Potassium bicarbonate to sodium bicarbonate solved the problem. Shrimp and animals need sodium while plant need potassium but not sodium. If the salty shrimp is adding potassium bicarbonate they you are likely should add some sodium to the tank. You can add sodium without increasing KH by adding 1/32 tsp of table salt (sodium chloride) to the tank. If the salt has iodine that is OK since shrimp also need iodine. (plants don't)
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
Based on your parameters, you seem to be doing everything right. Unless water temperature was way out there or they starved due to lack of food/biofilm, I doubt it's due to any fault of yours. Salty shrimp makes good products, I use their bee shrimp GH+ myself. Sometimes we just get unhealthy shrimp. Importation process can be very stressful, especially if they weren't quarantined by the breeder/seller. Do you happen to know the water parameters of the place you purchased the shrimp?
I do not, I purchased this last batch from the shrimp farm. I feed them hikari shrimp cuisine or algae wafers once a week and leave it in there 6-8 hours. They don't typically eat much food I give them. I have copepods in my tank as well which I thought was a sign of good water parameters.

I'm just clueless. I'm hoping all the babies I have are more Hardy but I've found a couple of them dead here and there as well.

My water is usually 76-78 degrees F

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Copper test reads in 0,.25,.5,1,2,4 ppm (mg/L)

I only use Excel every other day which I dose about 1 mL every other day. I have caribsea Eco complete substrate.

The calcium test I have not used because it says for salt water but I don't even know what the calcium should read for shrimp in freshwater.

Salty shrimp gh+/kh+ does not list anything for ingredients and I couldn't find anything online either.

I feed them maybe once every week or so either hikari shrimp cuisine or algae wafers in a glass dish. I only leave the food in maybe 6-8 hours or so then I make sure to get it all out as to not dirty up the tank.

I have a finnex planted + light I have on for 3 hrs between 9am-12pm and 6-9 pm.

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Originally Posted by Surf View Post
Other than salty shrimp what other items do you put in the water, fertilizers, water conditioners etc? Som calcium test kits designed for fresh water may work just fine in fresh water So please list the number you get from this test. Also when you say copper always read zero, what is the minimum no zero reading it can generator 1, 10, or 100ppb or something else? Please not shrimp like most animals do need some copper in the water. IF your fertilizer doesn't have copper you may need to add it. Also are you feeding and if so what. Or are the shrimp shrimp or feeding on the biofilm and algae in the tank?

Also does the container list the ingredients in the salty shrimp? If so please list them. There are two common ingredients used to boost KH potassium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Recently one person posted that he had problems keeping any snails or shrimp alive in his tank. He found that by switching from Potassium bicarbonate to sodium bicarbonate solved the problem. Shrimp and animals need sodium while plant need potassium but not sodium. If the salty shrimp is adding potassium bicarbonate they you are likely should add some sodium to the tank. You can add sodium without increasing KH by adding 1/32 tsp of table salt (sodium chloride) to the tank. If the salt has iodine that is OK since shrimp also need iodine. (plants don't)
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Last edited by Darkblade48; 05-07-2018 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 09:30 PM
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I do not, I purchased this last batch from the shrimp farm. I feed them hikari shrimp cuisine or algae wafers once a week and leave it in there 6-8 hours. They don't typically eat much food I give them. I have copepods in my tank as well which I thought was a sign of good water parameters.

I'm just clueless. I'm hoping all the babies I have are more Hardy but I've found a couple of them dead here and there as well.

My water is usually 76-78 degrees F

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I assume since you have babies, they are breeding ok? Are there lots of hiding spots in your tank? Are they molting successfully? Parasites can be deadly. Have you inspected them up close to rule that out? Are any of them "cloudy" in the pleopod area?

Mine don't crazy over food if there's sufficient biofilm present, so that's not always an indication of a problem either.

Add* Shrimps prefer cooler waters. You are on the the higher side at 76-78. They much prefer 68-73. Cooler temperatures will help with immunity to disease.

Last edited by madcrafted; 05-06-2018 at 09:34 PM. Reason: added note
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madcrafted View Post
I assume since you have babies, they are breeding ok? Are there lots of hiding spots in your tank? Are they molting successfully? Parasites can be deadly. Have you inspected them up close to rule that out? Are any of them "cloudy" in the pleopod area?

Mine don't crazy over food if there's sufficient biofilm present, so that's not always an indication of a problem either.

Add* Shrimps prefer cooler waters. You are on the the higher side at 76-78. They much prefer 68-73. Cooler temperatures will help with immunity to disease.
Yes I've had some,.some adults look like molting issues with the whole white line thing sometimes or looks like their skin/shell broke open and they died. But it makes me wander about the cuddlebone thing because of that but still the same time I find molts all over the place all the time.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 10:13 PM
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Molting issues point to GH but at 6, you should be fine. Are you doing large water changes without re-mineralizing first? Shrimps don't sudden changes in parameters, especially when it come to osmotic pressure changes.

If you were thinking about adding more calcium, I wouldn't mess with cuttlebone. Too inconsistent, IMO. You are already using R/O water, so you should be able to dial in your parameters to wherever you want. Just get the bee shrimp GH+ from salty shrimp or any GH booster would work really. This way you can use your KH/GH+ until you reach your target KH value, then add the GH+ to raise that without affecting your KH.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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Molting issues point to GH but at 6, you should be fine. Are you doing large water changes without re-mineralizing first? Shrimps don't sudden changes in parameters, especially when it come to osmotic pressure changes.

If you were thinking about adding more calcium, I wouldn't mess with cuttlebone. Too inconsistent, IMO. You are already using R/O water, so you should be able to dial in your parameters to wherever you want. Just get the bee shrimp GH+ from salty shrimp or any GH booster would work really. This way you can use your KH/GH+ until you reach your target KH value, then add the GH+ to raise that without affecting your KH.
So just raise my gh more then? No calcium supplements or anything? I make sure I get the parameters right in the water before I add it to the tank. I do about 25-30% water changes when I do.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-06-2018, 11:27 PM
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I mean, you could raise it a couple more points but I'm not so sure that's your issue. A GH of 6 should be plenty, unless they were kept a fair amount higher by the breeder, even then, they should have adapted to your parameters by now. The shift going between different tank parameters usually stresses them right away, not days or weeks later, unless something else is off.

The only thing hard about raising shrimp is resisting the urge to constantly fool with parameters. Shrimp can adapt to parameters beyond their ideal range, just so long as things stay consistent. I have kept various shrimp and I have lost even more by not following that simple rule. Water changes should be gradual and not very frequent. Replenished water should closely match that of what you are taking out (temperature and mineral-wise) and feeding should be done sparingly. TDS should be monitored at least once weekly, more is better during first few months. Shrimps also require good O2 levels. Stray from any of these requirements and things can go south quickly.

Your particular case is a hard one to diagnose since you are using shrimp specific mineralizers in R/O water. You GH is on the low side of ideal, but still in the ideal range. Your temps are a bit high but not alarming. There could be something else I'm overlooking but that's all I can think of right now. My guess would be bacterial/parasitic or just plain unhealthy imported shrimp... again that's only a guess.

On the bright side, if your shrimp are breeding, then there's a good chance the offspring will be even more resilient and thrive in your tank. Even if only a few survive long term, they will continue to breed and re-populate your tank before long.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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I mean, you could raise it a couple more points but I'm not so sure that's your issue. A GH of 6 should be plenty, unless they were kept a fair amount higher by the breeder, even then, they should have adapted to your parameters by now. The shift going between different tank parameters usually stresses them right away, not days or weeks later, unless something else is off.

The only thing hard about raising shrimp is resisting the urge to constantly fool with parameters. Shrimp can adapt to parameters beyond their ideal range, just so long as things stay consistent. I have kept various shrimp and I have lost even more by not following that simple rule. Water changes should be gradual and not very frequent. Replenished water should closely match that of what you are taking out (temperature and mineral-wise) and feeding should be done sparingly. TDS should be monitored at least once weekly, more is better during first few months. Shrimps also require good O2 levels. Stray from any of these requirements and things can go south quickly.

Your particular case is a hard one to diagnose since you are using shrimp specific mineralizers in R/O water. You GH is on the low side of ideal, but still in the ideal range. Your temps are a bit high but not alarming. There could be something else I'm overlooking but that's all I can think of right now. My guess would be bacterial/parasitic or just plain unhealthy imported shrimp... again that's only a guess.

On the bright side, if your shrimp are breeding, then there's a good chance the offspring will be even more resilient and thrive in your tank. Even if only a few survive long term, they will continue to breed and re-populate your tank before long.
Ya that's why I'm pulling my hair out over this about to be done with it. If they all died I sure as hell am. Even the snail dying after 2 days?! I constantly see people saying ohhh RCS are very Hardy and easy to take care of look here's some living in a jar with no lights no filters no Heater. Lies I say... This is bull.

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 12:46 AM
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Ya that's why I'm pulling my hair out over this about to be done with it. If they all died I sure as hell am. Even the snail dying after 2 days?! I constantly see people saying ohhh RCS are very Hardy and easy to take care of look here's some living in a jar with no lights no filters no Heater. Lies I say... This is bull.

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I feel your frustration. It can be really discouraging to see your shrimp colony deplete when starting out. So many people have just thrown them in heavily planted tanks with CO2 enriched tap water that's flooded with nutrients and get a 50% water change weekly and they thrive and breed like rabbits. Others not so much.

Shrimp, like most sought after livestock, tend to be over bred and kept in less than ideal conditions. Their lifespan can very hit or miss, especially when imported. I've never bought from the shrimpfarm because it's name always rang in my head as the "puppy mill" of shrimp breeders. I could be totally wrong about them, they could be great for all I know. I've never heard anything either way about them. I would however consider buying a few more elsewhere before giving up. There are a lot of breeders around the shrimp forums that have a good reputation and great selection of neocaridinas. If anything, it will help to strengthen your colony by introducing some fresh traits.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 02:08 AM Thread Starter
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I feel your frustration. It can be really discouraging to see your shrimp colony deplete when starting out. So many people have just thrown them in heavily planted tanks with CO2 enriched tap water that's flooded with nutrients and get a 50% water change weekly and they thrive and breed like rabbits. Others not so much.

Shrimp, like most sought after livestock, tend to be over bred and kept in less than ideal conditions. Their lifespan can very hit or miss, especially when imported. I've never bought from the shrimpfarm because it's name always rang in my head as the "puppy mill" of shrimp breeders. I could be totally wrong about them, they could be great for all I know. I've never heard anything either way about them. I would however consider buying a few more elsewhere before giving up. There are a lot of breeders around the shrimp forums that have a good reputation and great selection of neocaridinas. If anything, it will help to strengthen your colony by introducing some fresh traits.
On here? This Tapatalk makes navigating everything a nightmare for me. This is just the second batch I've gotten, the first I got locally (I was unintentionally killing them tho with my water softened water) then this second batch I got from shrimp farm came with like a dozen babies maybe born on the way to me ?

They're just so pricey I can't keep buying them and them keep dying >.< I mean that's 50 bucks of shrimp right there

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 03:55 AM
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Raise GH to 7-8

Lower temp below 75° F

Stop dosing Excel

Try smaller water changes - say 10% and drip back into the tank

Get some food which are better geared towards shrimp. Hikari Shrimp Cuisine? Not really ideal for shrimp... First and second ingredients are fish. Algae isn't until at least the 5th ingredient... The so called "algae wafers"... depending on the brand, the algae might not be on the ingredient list until 3rd to 9th ingredient... if they call it an "algae wafer", pellet, tab or whatever, why isn't it the first ingredient?

If there's any chance that the shrimp you received were imports, then you aren't guaranteed success, even with perfect parameters.... imported Neos are just prone to dying.



Shrimp molting without issues is not, IMO, a sign of a healthy shrimp. Having been there myself, no, a sign of healthy shrimp is a colony that is not only breeding, but thriving to the point that the population is increasing. "Cherry shrimp do fine in tap water!" Nope... they died in mine... not even the offspring lived. Water too soft. (no water softener, either!) So finally get offspring surviving to adult-hood... but I didn't have huge amounts of breeding... in fact, still had shrimp dying off. The breeding was only enough to really keep the population at least stable for the amount of deaths I was having... maybe growing a little? But no population boom that people often talk about. People gave various suggestions, but nothing really stood out. The only thing I hadn't done was switch to RO water and shrimp specific minerals. (tried RO water, but without shrimp specific minerals) That is, until someone suggested trying different foods. New foods, and all of a sudden, tons of berried females! Tons of babies!!! Then the double massacre happened... lost tons of shrimp, even a new colony. Poisons from the air... tanks neglected for *months*. If it was just one massacre, not two, then the colony I had would have at least had a chance to recover and rebuild... but nope. Two. Back to back within a couple of weeks. They stood no chance... (these being Caridinas, not Neocaridinas)

I'm now back to trying to actually keep them successfully, using RO water, SS GH/KH and "shrimp safe" foods. Although I have a variety of foods I could feed them, they eat food mainly from OMGAquatics and KensFish (vegetable sticks). Since starting this, I've had tons of berried females, tons of baby shrimp and even breeding from shrimp that weren't breeding prior to the massacre!
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 06:39 AM
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Copper test reads in 0,.25,.5,1,2,4 ppm (mg/L)
You don't want to see coper over 0.03ppm. The copper test kit you have is only good enough to determine if you have excessive copper in your tap water. Most fertilizers have less than 0.005ppm so you could be OK switching from Thrive S to regular thrive.

Have you tested your tap water with copper test? I would be interested to know what reads

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Salty shrimp gh+/kh+ does not list anything for ingredients and I couldn't find anything online either.
About the only thing I could find when looking some time ago is that people have commented that it dissolves faster than equilibrium. This isn't much but it does indicate it is a chloride based. Typically Gh boosters have potassium in them. I am guessing Salty shrimp does have it. But I don't know the source. If it is potassium bicarbonate that could explain your problem.

Read this post:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/88...e-inverts.html

I would try adding some sodium to the tank. You could switch to salty shrimp version without KH and then use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate and adjust the dose of each to Keep your Gh and KH stable. This is probably the best way to test this theory with minimal parameter changes.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-07-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
Raise GH to 7-8

Lower temp below 75° F

Stop dosing Excel

Try smaller water changes - say 10% and drip back into the tank

Get some food which are better geared towards shrimp. Hikari Shrimp Cuisine? Not really ideal for shrimp... First and second ingredients are fish. Algae isn't until at least the 5th ingredient... The so called "algae wafers"... depending on the brand, the algae might not be on the ingredient list until 3rd to 9th ingredient... if they call it an "algae wafer", pellet, tab or whatever, why isn't it the first ingredient?

If there's any chance that the shrimp you received were imports, then you aren't guaranteed success, even with perfect parameters.... imported Neos are just prone to dying.



Shrimp molting without issues is not, IMO, a sign of a healthy shrimp. Having been there myself, no, a sign of healthy shrimp is a colony that is not only breeding, but thriving to the point that the population is increasing. "Cherry shrimp do fine in tap water!" Nope... they died in mine... not even the offspring lived. Water too soft. (no water softener, either!) So finally get offspring surviving to adult-hood... but I didn't have huge amounts of breeding... in fact, still had shrimp dying off. The breeding was only enough to really keep the population at least stable for the amount of deaths I was having... maybe growing a little? But no population boom that people often talk about. People gave various suggestions, but nothing really stood out. The only thing I hadn't done was switch to RO water and shrimp specific minerals. (tried RO water, but without shrimp specific minerals) That is, until someone suggested trying different foods. New foods, and all of a sudden, tons of berried females! Tons of babies!!! Then the double massacre happened... lost tons of shrimp, even a new colony. Poisons from the air... tanks neglected for *months*. If it was just one massacre, not two, then the colony I had would have at least had a chance to recover and rebuild... but nope. Two. Back to back within a couple of weeks. They stood no chance... (these being Caridinas, not Neocaridinas)

I'm now back to trying to actually keep them successfully, using RO water, SS GH/KH and "shrimp safe" foods. Although I have a variety of foods I could feed them, they eat food mainly from OMGAquatics and KensFish (vegetable sticks). Since starting this, I've had tons of berried females, tons of baby shrimp and even breeding from shrimp that weren't breeding prior to the massacre!
I hadn't really considered the food source being a problem, as I don't have any experience with that brand. I started off with dennerle shrimp king sampler and glas garten foods when I first decided to keep caridinas. I had issues with over feeding of the powders when I first started, combined with excessive temperatures. I lost a majority of my stock, too. I invested in some decent measuring spoons and moved my shrimp rack to a spot that receives a nice flow of A/C now. My temps go as low as 61 in the winter and as high as 73 on hot summer days. As for feeding, I rarely feed them shrimp king pellets these days, although I don't see anything wrong with them besides shrimp don't go nuts for it anymore. I still feed bacter ae 2-3 times a week (small doses) and betaglucan every few weeks or so. The bacter ae makes up a majority of their diet, along with whatever is algae is growing in my tank. I've heard of some breeders only feeding bacter ae and having success. I find that if you get too heavy handed, it will spoil the water quickly but otherwise it's good stuff. It's pretty much just a dried lacto bacillus and bacillus subtilis. I could probably make this stuff myself with some rice and milk and a little fermentation time but I have plenty of this stuff now. Maybe something to consider when I run out.

I also like to supplement them with high calcium sources such as my "shrimp salad" mix of black mulberry, stinging nettles and dandelion leaves. This is convenient for me since they all grow plentiful on my land. I can dry them and store for winter too. I've been thinking about making my own sinking food by combining these leaves with other goodies like spirulina, chlorella, agar agar, bee pollen, etc. I just need to research a little more on this to come up with a complete mix with the proper ratios.
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