CRS requirements? - The Planted Tank Forum
 19Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
EmeraldAlkaline's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 193
CRS requirements?

hey everyone. So I set up a little 1.5 gallon cube-bowl for shrimp recently. Its not so much a bowl as it has a light and i've set up a sponge filter in it. I know this would probably be okay for red cherry shrimp, but would it be a good set up for Crystal Red Shrimp? It's got sand substrate and some plants too. Java moss, anubias, and bamboo. just want to know if it would be a good set up for CRS provided i get the right water parameters.

Current Fish tanks:
20 Gallon SE Asian biotope?: 8 amano shrimp, 1 Gold Gourami, 6 Panda Corys
10 gallon: 3 Female Bettas, 3 nerite snails, 4 Emerald Green Corys
7 gallon cube: 3 Licorice Gouramis, 1 leftover Dario Hysignon
4 gallon cube: Male Halfmoon Plakat Betta
2.5 Gallon: Male Bumblebee Betta
EmeraldAlkaline is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 04:20 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,250
Since you have sand, no.

Since it's such a small tank (i.e. under 10 gallons - especially under 5 gallons), again, no.


It can be much harder to keep Nano tanks stable and Caridinas need a specific set of parameters to *really* thrive in, so over-all, I'm just going to say no. On top of that, you live in a warm state and Caridinas prefer it on the cooler side... which is another thing going against you with having such a small tank! It would be easier to keep a larger tank cooler and more stable in temperature than a smaller tank would... unless of course you keep your home at 72° F or cooler...
Zoidburg is online now  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 05:56 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
natemcnutty's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,427
Sand is one of the few area I don't agree with zoidburg on. Buffering substrates take out some variables and guess work (maintaining parameters), but CRS are far more hardy than people give them credit for.

Having said that, I agree that keeping proper, stable parameters in that small of a tank long term is going to be near impossible. I'm all for experiments, but that isn't one I'd bother with.

Edit: I think cherries would be fine as they are a little less specific on parameters and allow for a wider range of "mistakes"

Last edited by natemcnutty; 05-30-2017 at 05:21 PM.
natemcnutty is offline  
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
EmeraldAlkaline's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
Since you have sand, no.

Since it's such a small tank (i.e. under 10 gallons - especially under 5 gallons), again, no.


It can be much harder to keep Nano tanks stable and Caridinas need a specific set of parameters to *really* thrive in, so over-all, I'm just going to say no. On top of that, you live in a warm state and Caridinas prefer it on the cooler side... which is another thing going against you with having such a small tank! It would be easier to keep a larger tank cooler and more stable in temperature than a smaller tank would... unless of course you keep your home at 72° F or cooler...
hmm okay. whats the problem with sand? I thought shrimp preferred finer substrate?

I suppose Ill do RCS in there then, unless they would have problems too? if thats the case what could i do? I'm assuming that tank is too small for a dwarf frog. Snails? :P

Current Fish tanks:
20 Gallon SE Asian biotope?: 8 amano shrimp, 1 Gold Gourami, 6 Panda Corys
10 gallon: 3 Female Bettas, 3 nerite snails, 4 Emerald Green Corys
7 gallon cube: 3 Licorice Gouramis, 1 leftover Dario Hysignon
4 gallon cube: Male Halfmoon Plakat Betta
2.5 Gallon: Male Bumblebee Betta
EmeraldAlkaline is offline  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Zoidburg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,250
Crystal shrimp do best in a tank with 5.8 to 6.8 pH, with a KH of 0-1. The easiest, and most stable way of attaining those water parameters is to using a buffering substrate using RO/DI water and a GH+ only mineralizer.


https://www.discobee.com/blogs/news/...ter-parameters


It is possible for them to live in the lower end of Neocaridina parameters, but they may not thrive as well in higher pH with higher KH levels.


Using products like pH Down or Discuss Buffer is just asking for a whole host of problems and quite possibly the death of the shrimp! Products like those may raise the TDS while lowering the GH (which shrimp need), and if there's nothing to buffer the water to those parameters, then the pH may rise right back up into the 7.0 or higher range. Dose the tank again, you raise the TDS yet again, possibly even lowering the GH further (re: molting issues), and the pH is going up and down like a terrible roller coaster....


Alternatively, you could try using things like driftwood, indian almond leaves or alder cones to lower the pH, but then you need to make sure that all new incoming water matches the tank water to reduce the chance of the pH changing too much... and these things may release tannins, causing the tank to be a brown or tea color... which might be less pleasing to the eye.





Bassically, if you want the best chance of success with crystal shrimp, then start out with a 10 gallon tank using buffering substrate, RO water and a GH+ only remineralizer.
Zoidburg is online now  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 09:50 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
jellopuddinpop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: CT River Valley, CT, USA
Posts: 555
I’m not trying to hijack this thread (sorry OP!), but assuming remineralized RO water and buffering substrate, how do you control the ph of water for a water change? Let’s assume the ph of the tank water is buffered down to 6.0 by the substrate, almond leaves, alder cones, etc… and the RO water is sitting stable at 7.0, can you just change 25% and assume all will be OK? Won’t that result is a sharp jump in the ph of the tank? I understand the tank will re-buffer to 6.0ish, but what about in the meantime?

I only ask because I plan on setting up some CRS tanks soon, and I've yet to understand this.
Zoidburg and Zoidburg like this.

If you ever think you're too small to make a difference, spend a couple of nights sleeping with a mosquito.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jellopuddinpop is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-30-2017, 11:26 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
natemcnutty's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellopuddinpop View Post
I’m not trying to hijack this thread (sorry OP!), but assuming remineralized RO water and buffering substrate, how do you control the ph of water for a water change? Let’s assume the ph of the tank water is buffered down to 6.0 by the substrate, almond leaves, alder cones, etc… and the RO water is sitting stable at 7.0, can you just change 25% and assume all will be OK? Won’t that result is a sharp jump in the ph of the tank? I understand the tank will re-buffer to 6.0ish, but what about in the meantime?

I only ask because I plan on setting up some CRS tanks soon, and I've yet to understand this.
How much of an increase depends on how quickly you change the water (I'd drip change for smaller tanks). Your substrate will begin buffering the water as soon as you start changing it, so the slower you change, the more time you give it to keep up.

I don't like buffering substrates because they are expensive and require a tank teardown every year and a half to two years, but as Zoidburg mentioned, it will make your life a lot easier if you are just starting out. For smaller tanks, the cost might be worth it.

Personally, I don't care about pH that much, but if I did, I would pretreat my water with peat moss and then remove any tannins with a resin like Purigen. That's exactly what Diana was doing for her tanks, and peat moss actually lowers TDS unlike driftwood, IAL, or cones.
natemcnutty is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-31-2017, 01:21 PM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by natemcnutty View Post
How much of an increase depends on how quickly you change the water (I'd drip change for smaller tanks). Your substrate will begin buffering the water as soon as you start changing it, so the slower you change, the more time you give it to keep up.

I don't like buffering substrates because they are expensive and require a tank teardown every year and a half to two years, but as Zoidburg mentioned, it will make your life a lot easier if you are just starting out. For smaller tanks, the cost might be worth it.

Personally, I don't care about pH that much, but if I did, I would pretreat my water with peat moss and then remove any tannins with a resin like Purigen. That's exactly what Diana was doing for her tanks, and peat moss actually lowers TDS unlike driftwood, IAL, or cones.
Tds its not always what ppl think, it contains all debris in water column, its not always about minerals, If You have really high TDS, add extra sponge filter and You'll see how dramatically TDS go low. Your params can be right, but if filtration system suck, TDS is huge

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
brook39 is offline  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-31-2017, 05:12 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
natemcnutty's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by brook39 View Post
Tds its not always what ppl think, it contains all debris in water column, its not always about minerals, If You have really high TDS, add extra sponge filter and You'll see how dramatically TDS go low. Your params can be right, but if filtration system suck, TDS is huge

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
It would be good to clarify debris since a food flake does not show up in TDS until it starts dissolving completely into ammonia, phosphate, etc. If you can lower your TDS using mechanical filtration, that only exposes that your previous filtration was inadequate.

I don't understand why this is the case, but tannins (or maybe related acids) from driftwood, leaves, and cones tend to increase TDS while peat moss actually absorbs many things causing TDS to decrease.

While TDS by itself is pretty useless, it is very helpful in a somewhat closed system where you are trying to gauge changes you are making (such as adding fertilizers or watching nitrates).

I care because it gives me a quick glance at where I was, where I am, and helps me know where I'm going (TDS increases as water evaporates and I add ferts, so if my TDS is dropping, I know I'm not adding enough ferts).
clownplanted and clownplanted like this.
natemcnutty is offline  
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-02-2017, 10:26 PM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by natemcnutty View Post
It would be good to clarify debris since a food flake does not show up in TDS until it starts dissolving completely into ammonia, phosphate, etc. If you can lower your TDS using mechanical filtration, that only exposes that your previous filtration was inadequate.

I don't understand why this is the case, but tannins (or maybe related acids) from driftwood, leaves, and cones tend to increase TDS while peat moss actually absorbs many things causing TDS to decrease.

While TDS by itself is pretty useless, it is very helpful in a somewhat closed system where you are trying to gauge changes you are making (such as adding fertilizers or watching nitrates).

I care because it gives me a quick glance at where I was, where I am, and helps me know where I'm going (TDS increases as water evaporates and I add ferts, so if my TDS is dropping, I know I'm not adding enough ferts).
I just wanted to point out, that i observed my tds dropped down after i connected second filter, my tank is 20 gal long and in my case it was much better idea to use 2 filters on each side of the tank, and i dont use any food flakes or other messy pellets, it's only shrimp tank. Im my case high tds was caused by lot of debris from Driftwood and leaves, all params stay stable only tds is low

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk
brook39 is offline  
post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 01:26 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
GrampsGrunge's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Diatom Alley, Lakeside, OR
Posts: 1,476
If I may interject a few observations. It's been noted that in a Caridinia shrimp tank, at least Crystal, Bee, TB and certain Tiger/TB breeds that you only use RO water with a Caridinia shrimp safe remineralizer. You can in a pinch use Seachems Equalibrium, but it adds some KH. I think NicLog's GH booster is considered better because it' doesn't add any KH.

Now most of these GH boosters are made with sulfates, which tend towards slightly acid buffering when mixed in the quantities used for Crystal shrimps and such. The "buffering soil' is a bit of a misnomer, they actively retain KH Ions which keep already pH neutral water water neutral while they also add certain organic acid compounds like Fluvins and tannins and such. Using RO and buffering soil is a bit of a waste as the KH buffering available in the soil isn't going to make the RO water have any less KH than it already has, which is zip.

As such RO water tends to stay acid with buffering soil although it can be affected to big pH swings if you accidentally add something like limestone or other KH additive by mistake. This is the same reason why it's not a great idea to run your shrimp tank as a planted tank with CO2 injection as you may bounce the pH daily if the CO2 is on a solenoid controlled by a timer. Low light with a few mosses and other low tech plants, and low nutrients is the best set-up, you are less likely to change the tank's water chemistry in a big way.
Zoidburg and Zoidburg like this.

Starting small, keeping it simple..(?)
250 gallon stock tank, "pond"
20 gallon H CBS Shrimp tank

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
GrampsGrunge is offline  
post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 08:43 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
clownplanted's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Sparks, Nevada
Posts: 2,325
CRS requirements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brook39 View Post
I just wanted to point out, that i observed my tds dropped down after i connected second filter, my tank is 20 gal long and in my case it was much better idea to use 2 filters on each side of the tank, and i dont use any food flakes or other messy pellets, it's only shrimp tank. Im my case high tds was caused by lot of debris from Driftwood and leaves, all params stay stable only tds is low

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


Your tds most likely went down when you added the second filter not due to less debris but the processing of organics. I say this because today in my tank I had a ton of debris from dead leaves and excess food. And I'm not talking about a little but a lot. I tested the tds before and immediately after cleaning a ton and the tds remained exactly the same as @natemcnutty explained. You can test this.

Remember the D in tds stands for dissolved.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
clownplanted is offline  
post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 10:53 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
awesometim1's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: US
Posts: 477
Sand is ok for shrimp. I have CRS in black sand and they love it. CRS really need low temps and low PH to thrive. Also 1.5 gallon is more suitable for snails or maybe 1-2 Red Cherry shrimp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
clownplanted and clownplanted like this.

~Tim
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
awesometim1 is offline  
post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
EmeraldAlkaline's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by awesometim1 View Post
Sand is ok for shrimp. I have CRS in black sand and they love it. CRS really need low temps and low PH to thrive. Also 1.5 gallon is more suitable for snails or maybe 1-2 Red Cherry shrimp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Duely noted. Ive decided to replace that bowl with a little 3 gallon for some shrimp. Still up in the air as to WHAT shrimp to stock, but if I want to got the CRS route, sand is okay? what is recommended as substrate?

As for low PH and low temp, I the water temp can be a little lower thanks to blasting the AC and fan in my room the water temp probably gets low 70s. As for the pH would it be safe to use like, sachem discus buffer?
awesometim1 and awesometim1 like this.

Current Fish tanks:
20 Gallon SE Asian biotope?: 8 amano shrimp, 1 Gold Gourami, 6 Panda Corys
10 gallon: 3 Female Bettas, 3 nerite snails, 4 Emerald Green Corys
7 gallon cube: 3 Licorice Gouramis, 1 leftover Dario Hysignon
4 gallon cube: Male Halfmoon Plakat Betta
2.5 Gallon: Male Bumblebee Betta
EmeraldAlkaline is offline  
post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 01:59 AM
Planted Member
 
TropicalAquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (34/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Atlanta GA, USA
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldAlkaline View Post
Duely noted. Ive decided to replace that bowl with a little 3 gallon for some shrimp. Still up in the air as to WHAT shrimp to stock, but if I want to got the CRS route, sand is okay? what is recommended as substrate?

As for low PH and low temp, I the water temp can be a little lower thanks to blasting the AC and fan in my room the water temp probably gets low 70s. As for the pH would it be safe to use like, sachem discus buffer?
A buffering substrate is recomended for them such as Fluval Stratum (amazon),
Brightwell Aquasoil, etc. For such a small tank, you won't need much at all.
I would not suggest the seachem discus buffer, as it removes GH (which you want for the shrimp), but not KH(which you don't want).
Opare, Opare, natemcnutty and 1 others like this.
TropicalAquarist is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome