Are they hiding? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Are they hiding?

I have a heavily planted Nuvo Nano 8 which has always been a shrimp/ snail and sometimes neon tank. The shrimp have been not so successful, they would last a couple of months at best. The tank has only had a couple of nerites and a bazillion Malaysian trumpet snails since July, and has been set up-other than a 4 mile move for about 6 years. Our water is alkaline <edit: pH 8.2> and liquid rock (425).

Anyway, a month ago as I was browsing through an LFS, I came across some Blue Velvet shrimp. They were said to be raised locally in tap water, and were in tap water at the store. On a whim, I picked up just 3 of them- they were (for me) expensive ($5 apiece). And with my track record... Anyway, they'd been doing well for a couple of weeks- I started adding about 10-15% RO when I made water changes and topped off with it, I still had Azoo Vita and Mineral Plus, and feed Fluval and Ocean Nutrition Shrimp food.

I went back to get more Blue Velvets and was told they were out and didn't think they'd be available anytime soon. I stopped at another LFS that I'd been going to for years just to schmooze and browse, and was shown a tank of Blue Dreams -locally bred and in local tap water. I couldn't resist, and got six for $10, one a large-ish berried female.

So 3 1/2 weeks on, I have 7 of the 9 left. Big Momma has carried the eggs, and they had gotten larger. When I last saw her with them about 6 days ago, the eggs looked large and elongated. Big Momma disappeared for a day, then reappeared eggless.

After all that back story... the question is - should I have seen shrimplets by now? Did she drop them or are they hanging out in the 'jungle"? It's hard to see even see the adults, TBH. The only way I get a head count is to put their pellets on a flat rock in a small clearing at the front of the tank. It is bounded by driftwood, two large clumps of java moss and a grove of crypts that go to the waterline in the back.

Should I give up on the babies or hang in?

29g heavily planted SA: driftwood, rocks, Angels, Corys, Rasboras.
8g Nuvo: Pineapple SuperDumbo, driftwood, java moss and crypts. A jungle.
10g 3x divided Betta planted with Blue Mustard Gas, Red Double Tail HM, Blue/Red Fire Dragon and snails.


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Last edited by TeteRouge; 02-12-2017 at 12:58 AM. Reason: gave tank pH rather than tap Ph
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 06:03 PM
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I'd say they're probably hiding. New shrimplets are only a couple millimeters long and have very little color, so they aren't all that easy to see. They're probably in your jungle feasting on all the biofilm so they wouldn't have any reason to come out anyway.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BigMek View Post
I'd say they're probably hiding. New shrimplets are only a couple millimeters long and have very little color, so they aren't all that easy to see. They're probably in your jungle feasting on all the biofilm so they wouldn't have any reason to come out anyway.
You should buy a GH/KH kit and see what is happening with your water. Here in San Francisco the tap water is decent for shrimp, but it changes a lot. One month it's KH 0 GH 2, next month KH 3 GH 5.... All of this will mess with your shrimp's ability to molt and give birth, if not survival alone.

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 07:50 PM
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"Local tap water" might not mean much, since some homes may have water softeners installed in them and the piping can be different.

If possible, I would recommend finding out what the tap water is where the shrimp came from, as well as the parameters of the tank they are living in. Those can be two completely different things.

As mentioned though, you might have shrimplets and they could be hiding. I'm curious though if you have any pictures of when the female was berried???



Also recommend getting a liquid GH and KH test kit, either by API or Sera.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 07:56 PM
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"Local tap water" might not mean much, since some homes may have water softeners installed in them and the piping can be different.

If possible, I would recommend finding out what the tap water is where the shrimp came from, as well as the parameters of the tank they are living in. Those can be two completely different things.

As mentioned though, you might have shrimplets and they could be hiding. I'm curious though if you have any pictures of when the female was berried???



Also recommend getting a liquid GH and KH test kit, either by API or Sera.
+1. You are screwed without a GH/KH kit.

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the responses!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMek View Post
I'd say they're probably hiding. New shrimplets are only a couple millimeters long and have very little color, so they aren't all that easy to see. They're probably in your jungle feasting on all the biofilm so they wouldn't have any reason to come out anyway.
Spot on! I saw one, it looked like a tiny blue eyelash! He was dwarfed by those little shrimp wafers, but trying to scarf one down anyway. Fingers crossed he makes it and there are more!

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Originally Posted by sfshrimp View Post
You should buy a GH/KH kit and see what is happening with your water. Here in San Francisco the tap water is decent for shrimp, but it changes a lot. One month it's KH 0 GH 2, next month KH 3 GH 5.... All of this will mess with your shrimp's ability to molt and give birth, if not survival alone.
I do have an API Master Kit and supplemental KH/GH Kit. More on that in a minute- Our water here is liquid rock, but at least it's stable. It must be a real challenge when your source water is all over the map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
"Local tap water" might not mean much, since some homes may have water softeners installed in them and the piping can be different.

If possible, I would recommend finding out what the tap water is where the shrimp came from, as well as the parameters of the tank they are living in. Those can be two completely different things.

As mentioned though, you might have shrimplets and they could be hiding. I'm curious though if you have any pictures of when the female was berried???

Also recommend getting a liquid GH and KH test kit, either by API or Sera.
I've been going to this particular LFS for about 12 years and spent hours chatting with the owner and staff. I do know they don't treat the water other than removing chlorine-They may age it, there are always open tanks of water under the racks aerating. They house stock in individual tanks with their own filters. We are all on the same water in Las Vegas other than, as you say, piping. I know they are on the second generation of Blue Dreams in the store tank- they breed like cherries The breeder is a long time customer of theirs and lives here. They assure me he doesn't do R/O or softeners. There are occasionally caridina in the LFS, but their tanks are marked R/O in big letters. I do understand that there will be variables despite the fact we are all on the Southern Nevada Water Authority feed. No good photo of her, I'm adding one of the tank, but my camera phone is pretty bad. (It's not cloudy, I'm reflected on the front)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfshrimp View Post
+1. You are screwed without a GH/KH kit.
I'm screwed with one Tap water here is tends to be ~ KH 190, ~GH 360, pH 8.2. Perfect Rift Lake water, no adjustment needed, lol. That's close to what I test. As was pointed out, there will be variances. My liquid G/H K/H test of the shrimp tank gave me a KH 8 drops, GH at least 25 drops (lost count around then when I saw the shrimplet, but a lot ). pH 7.6 The API test strip gave GH 250 in my tank.

I've been topping off with R/O to prevent more concentration of "rock" due to evaporation. I change maybe a gallon a week and maybe a pint of that is R/O. My LFS said clean and stable was most important.

Thanks again!
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29g heavily planted SA: driftwood, rocks, Angels, Corys, Rasboras.
8g Nuvo: Pineapple SuperDumbo, driftwood, java moss and crypts. A jungle.
10g 3x divided Betta planted with Blue Mustard Gas, Red Double Tail HM, Blue/Red Fire Dragon and snails.


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Last edited by TeteRouge; 02-12-2017 at 01:03 AM. Reason: corrected name
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 04:45 AM
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A good chance that the shrimp weren't thriving before because the water was too hard.... but breeding in same parameters definitely ups your ability to have a thriving population!

I'm on the opposite end of the state and have soft water.... as in maybe 3.5 GH and KH on the high end! I've been mixing with hard water (10 KH and 19 GH, TDS 475) just to get acceptable water parameters.


Most shrimp keepers measure in German Degrees, not PPM. So it would be 8 dKH and 25 dGH... (simplified without the "d") not 142 KH and 446 GH. Test strips are often unreliable and don't always measure as high as liquid kits do... so it's good that you do have the liquid kit as well.




Blue dreams *ARE* cherry shrimp, so of course they would breed like them!


If the offspring can survive in your water, then they would be more adapted to it than their parents, thus a better chance of survival for future offspring!
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 06:31 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, @Zoidburg! That's encouraging to know. I'm thinking continue doing small water changes, and use maybe 20% ? R/O in each gallon of tap water to slowly lower the GH just a bit? I don't want to go too far, though. If they are acclimated to our hard water, just a bit of a tweak for balance. Maybe I'll ask my LFS if we could just see what the GH is in their shrimp tank...

I was just there today buying Purple Rasboras for my 29, and could go back tomorrow for umm a few more? (actually I wouldn't mind a few more- they are gorgeous -metallic copper heads and deep purple bodies)

29g heavily planted SA: driftwood, rocks, Angels, Corys, Rasboras.
8g Nuvo: Pineapple SuperDumbo, driftwood, java moss and crypts. A jungle.
10g 3x divided Betta planted with Blue Mustard Gas, Red Double Tail HM, Blue/Red Fire Dragon and snails.


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Last edited by TeteRouge; 02-12-2017 at 06:33 AM. Reason: clarity
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 05:07 PM
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With your hard water, it's a good idea to stick with local Neos if possible.


If you were to try buying Neos from non-local breeders, you'd probably have to mix at least 3.5 to 4 gallons of RO with 1 to 1.5 gallons of tap! (that is, if you didn't go straight RO and remineralized with a product)


Your plan is good! It does help to find out the GH of the tanks the shrimp came from! A local breeder to me has the same exact tap water as I do (i.e. soft!) but her tanks have higher GH, KH and TDS. She doesn't do anything with the water! No additives or remineralizers. She does water changes with straight tap!



Of all the stores in my area that sell shrimp, the best place for me to get shrimp is, unfortunately, Petco.... The LFS has mid-grade colored shrimp and they charge a lot for them! A local chain pet store charges even more for their shrimp, but they don't even keep their shrimp in correct water parameters, so the shrimp never look healthy... (i.e. their tanks are pure RO.... death to any shrimp!) Which leaves Petco.... although their shrimps are kind of expensive, they at least generally look healthy and are of a nice grade...

The local breeder is only doing it as a side hobby to enjoy. She doesn't cull or selectively breed, so her shrimp are low quality.



So you are lucky that you have people and stores in your area that are more serious about shrimp keeping!
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidburg View Post
With your hard water, it's a good idea to stick with local Neos if possible.

If you were to try buying Neos from non-local breeders, you'd probably have to mix at least 3.5 to 4 gallons of RO with 1 to 1.5 gallons of tap! (that is, if you didn't go straight RO and remineralized with a product)

Your plan is good! It does help to find out the GH of the tanks the shrimp came from! A local breeder to me has the same exact tap water as I do (i.e. soft!) but her tanks have higher GH, KH and TDS. She doesn't do anything with the water! No additives or remineralizers. She does water changes with straight tap!

Of all the stores in my area that sell shrimp, the best place for me to get shrimp is, unfortunately, Petco.... The LFS has mid-grade colored shrimp and they charge a lot for them! A local chain pet store charges even more for their shrimp, but they don't even keep their shrimp in correct water parameters, so the shrimp never look healthy... (i.e. their tanks are pure RO.... death to any shrimp!) Which leaves Petco.... although their shrimps are kind of expensive, they at least generally look healthy and are of a nice grade...

The local breeder is only doing it as a side hobby to enjoy. She doesn't cull or selectively breed, so her shrimp are low quality.

So you are lucky that you have people and stores in your area that are more serious about shrimp keeping!
As national chains go, I've found the Petco aquarium halo stores to be one of the rare better ones. Of the 9 Petcos here, I believe 3 are their aquatics specialist stores, Very knowlegible, able to order, more stock than others. And better cared for. Still, an LFS with enthusiasts working there and an owner committed to the success of his customers as well as his business is a good thing, indeed.

I stopped by my LFS today and got 3 more Purple Rasboras - fill my shoal of them out to 11 (they are 3 for $10) and 3 more Blue Dreams (3 for $10 as well). Actually he sold me 3 juvies, and threw in 3 tiny shrimplets . I had remarked that it was amazing how well they did in tap water and he said they were breeding all the time. When I got home, I tested the water in the bag, which of course came from the shrimp tank.

Inconclusive, lol. I think my reagents may be too old. The first test worked as expected- 10 dKH, GH is another story-I gave up after 60 drops. I reverted to the test strip.

The store tank was ( by Mardel Test Strips )
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Total Hardness <425ppm ( just under)
Total Buffering 240 (alkalinity/ total buffering capacity)
pH 8.0

Yep, it's tap water

29g heavily planted SA: driftwood, rocks, Angels, Corys, Rasboras.
8g Nuvo: Pineapple SuperDumbo, driftwood, java moss and crypts. A jungle.
10g 3x divided Betta planted with Blue Mustard Gas, Red Double Tail HM, Blue/Red Fire Dragon and snails.


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