Shrimp die during acclimation - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
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..........TANK....SHRIMP

PH .....-6.8.......-7.8......(Co2 would account for that drop)
Kh .....-6..........-3.5
Gh......-10........-4
TDS....-Can't test but I know the water from all three sources is about the same and I have obtained shrimp from them before and just dumped them in the tank without an issue, unless my new substrate is affecting the TDS. I have started the last test using some of the sand cap in a jar with a shrimp to check it for contamination, if that passes I can rule out substrate.

I did an 80% WC this morning, the water smelt quite bad even worst than when I go away for a month without any WC while still dosing full EI. I will do a further 50% daily for 3 days .

My WC's are done with straight tap water and prime, I have about 100 shrimp in a bucket out back and I have been dumping straight tap water into that without any conditioner (just sat for 24h) in one day I tripled the volume in the bucket.

Are those numbers enough to warrant a 3 week acclimatisation?
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post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:16 AM
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Can you or have you tested the gh/kh of your tap water? The gh/kh difference between your tank water and the "shrimp" water (I am assuming that is the source water they came from but maybe that is your tap or combo of the 2 at this point) is definitely a huge difference when it comes to shrimp.
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post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 06:26 AM
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From my understanding, GH and TDS "kind of" go hand in hand... i.e. the higher the GH, the higher the TDS. However, it is possible to alter GH without changing TDS? (still learning about GH, KH and TDS)


I was thinking that perhaps the difference between the two is too great for the shrimp to handle. Even if you say the water from all sources is "about the same", it doesn't account for the different total dissolved solids... Does your LFS dose ferts in their tanks? If they are, are they dosing the same as you are? Or less? More? Although the wild shrimp do live in water where there is a lot of decaying material and the nutrients and minerals from the soil add to the water, if they are in a stream, that constant "fresh water" running through can keep those things down as compared to living in a pool that may not be receiving as much "fresh water".
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post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by heatherbee View Post
Can you or have you tested the gh/kh of your tap water? The gh/kh difference between your tank water and the "shrimp" water (I am assuming that is the source water they came from but maybe that is your tap or combo of the 2 at this point) is definitely a huge difference when it comes to shrimp.

Tap water is 1gh and 1 kh, I will slowly adjust the buckets gh/kh and see what happens.

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Does your LFS dose ferts in their tanks? If they are, are they dosing the same as you are? Or less? More? Although the wild shrimp do live in water where there is a lot of decaying material and the nutrients and minerals from the soil add to the water, if they are in a stream, that constant "fresh water" running through can keep those things down as compared to living in a pool that may not be receiving as much "fresh water".

They do not fertilise the water, I have also seen them fill up their tanks straight from a garden hose. This particular batch of shrimp in the bucket come from a clear flowing stream which turns to salt tidal a few kms downstream.
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post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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I took some water from the aquarium post WC, the ph/kh/gh still vastly different from the shrimp bucket. I the very roughly acclimated 2 shrimp to it and within the hour had them in 100% tank water.

That ruled out the change in water parameters killing them, it must be something in the water killing them. Although the water seems ok now I would love to find out what the cause as it is likely to come back.

So to summarise:
Very fast death
Not Co2
Not water parameter shock
Not Substrate contamination
Not Ammonia or Nitrate
Lethality not reduced by carbon

Any ideas?

Edit- 5 hours later and the shrimp are dead. The water post WC still kills but at a much slower rate. Tomorrow morning I will try very slow acclimation.

Last edited by Jok178; 05-01-2016 at 01:37 PM. Reason: new data
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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
and MCSLABS

I took water from the tank and let it sit in a bucket for 5 hours and then put a bubbler in for 1.5 hours. At this point all Co2 is gone and O2 is high, I tried adding shrimp to it, they still die within the hour.
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Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I put 100ml of shrimp water with 2 shrimp in jar, and added 10ml of tank water that has been treated with active carbon in every 15min.
When I reached 50ml added the shrimp died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I have about 100 shrimp in a bucket out back and I have been dumping straight tap water into that without any conditioner (just sat for 24h) in one day I tripled the volume in the bucket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I took some water from the aquarium post WC, the ph/kh/gh still vastly different from the shrimp bucket. I the very roughly acclimated 2 shrimp to it and within the hour had them in 100% tank water.


Edit- 5 hours later and the shrimp are dead. The water post WC still kills but at a much slower rate. Tomorrow morning I will try very slow acclimation.

From what I read above, your tap water is ruled out as a problem. This leaves only your substrate, or something you added to the tank. When you set up the tank was it new?

Standard 10 Gallon (20 x12x12).
Low tech, Sand substrate.
Eheim 2211, and Aqueon Quietflow 10.
Finnex Stingray LED, 20" above substrate
2 Anubias Nana Petite, Christmas moss.
4 Halequin Rasborahs, 5 RCS.
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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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The tank was not new, its my usual lounge room tank. I just pulled everything out 2 weeks ago, put in new substrate, some new and old plants, and 30% of old water, I did not touch the filter.

I have a jar with some of the soil section and a jar with some of the sand section outside, a shrimp living happily in both. I have not tested the substrate layer with Dolomite and Muriate of Potash as excess Dolomite saturation would cause a GH spike (not seen) and excess MOP is not present as plants have minor K deficiency. To cover all bases I will start a 3rd jar with those two minerals inside and throw in a shrimp.
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:06 PM
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I am a little suspect of the Muriate of Potash, 60% potassium, 40% chloride. Granted, chloride is not chlorine, and chloride is a necessary micro-nutrient, but there is quite a bit of debate out there about the build up of chloride from this product. Interesting to see how your test goes.

Standard 10 Gallon (20 x12x12).
Low tech, Sand substrate.
Eheim 2211, and Aqueon Quietflow 10.
Finnex Stingray LED, 20" above substrate
2 Anubias Nana Petite, Christmas moss.
4 Halequin Rasborahs, 5 RCS.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:20 PM
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Given how quickly the shrimp die, it must be something toxic in the water/tank.

I would set aside a bucket of tap water and just acclimate the shrimp using only the tap water, not the tank water. If the shrimp still die acclimating to only dechlorinated tap water, then your tap water has some contaminant.

You could use remineralized R/O water as an alternative.

Even though the fish and plants do fine, they usually are more hardy than shrimp and different chemicals can be a lot more harmful to shrimp when those same chemical concentrations would not cause any major symptoms in fish or plants.

I don't think it's due to differing water parameters as a drip acclimation should ease the transition pretty well.
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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I am a little suspect of the Muriate of Potash, 60% potassium, 40% chloride. Granted, chloride is not chlorine, and chloride is a necessary micro-nutrient, but there is quite a bit of debate out there about the build up of chloride from this product. Interesting to see how your test goes.

I actually was worried about the MOP when I was looking into MTS substrate and raised concerns on this forum about its use.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29...ml#post8836778


I put 0.2 grams of MOP into 350ml of water, a rough guestimate of the ratio under my substrate to tank water. Shrimp death was very quick.


This equates to 268.6ppm Cl and 286ppm K. If those levels are similar to what is in my tank then no wonder shrimp are dying, but why would I have a K deficiency as well? I suppose it is possible that the 2 elements have separated, the K was too heavy and stayed at the bottom while the Cl has leeched its way through the substrate.


If this is the case it should be a simple matter of lots of WC's until the Cl level reduces to a safe level.

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Originally Posted by WaterLife View Post
I would set aside a bucket of tap water and just acclimate the shrimp using only the tap water.

Today I roughly acclimated a shrimp to straight tap water with zero treatment and it survived, I can rule out tap water issues.
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 03:41 AM
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I had a massive die off due to green driftwood. What is in the tank ? Seems as though it isn't the tap and honestly the copper myth, despite being debunked multiple times, is still pervasive but feel free to disregard. I would start looking hard at what is actually in that tank.
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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 03:42 AM
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I reckon jump into a shrimp specific forum, someone may be able to spot your issue very quickly.

Www.shrimpkeepersforum.com



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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-04-2016, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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In the tank is just plants, mts substrate, inlet, outlet, and a PH probe. I managed to get one shrimp acclimated today and he was in a jar of tank water for 12hours then I dropped him the aquarium. Tommorrow I am going to try acclimate a whole bunch and see if they survive 36 hours before I let them in the tank. The WC's are definitely reducing the lethality of the water and the MOP is looking like the culprit more and more.

If I don't have shrimp safe water by Sunday I will take your advice and join that forum.
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-07-2016, 12:39 AM Thread Starter
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So I replaced the bucket water with tank water and the shrimp survived for 30hours, I then placed the shrimp in the tank and they all died.

One of my glass catfish developed a swim bladder problem and died some of my fish are missing (presumably dead and eaten).

In plant world:
New growth stunted and deformed,
L. Repens old growth necrosis
L. Inclinata looking colour Nd.some leaves wilting like a plant watered in middle of summers day,
R. Wallichii short twisted leaves.
I think most of this can be attributed to the fact I lowered my PO4 from 4ppm every 2 days to 2ppm.
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-07-2016, 12:52 AM
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Start half a dozen or more jars of water, perhaps 1 quart jars.
Do whatever you normally do to your aquarium water, but only one thing in each jar.

Jar #0: Just water. (Do you use tap water? Or a blend of Tap + RO?)
Jar #1: A handful of substrate
Jar #2: your nitrate fertilizer
Jar #3: your phosphate fertilizer
Jar #4: your potassium fertilizer (I think this is what you were doing in the above posts)
Jar #5: a few rocks from the tank (if any)
Jar #5: a bit of the driftwood (if any)
Jar #6: Dechlor

...and so on, until you are testing each thing you add to the tank separately.
Try to maintain the dose that is in the tank.

In another jar, set up some water that matches the parameters the shrimp are in at the store. If I am understanding post #16 correctly the shrimp are in much softer water than your tank. Get some RO or distilled water and add just enough baking soda or potassium bicarbonate to make the KH the same, and just enough GH booster to make the GH the same. Make sure the GH booster does not contain salt (sodium chloride).
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