Questions and comments on c02/o2 saturation - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 01:07 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
calihawker's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cool, California
Posts: 77
Questions and comments on c02/o2 saturation

I have a 300 gallon heavily planted discus tank that has been up and running for 2 years now. Things are great, the tank is beautiful but I've made some observations recently that I would like to get some comment on.

One of the things that took some time to get right is the amount of c02 necessary. Over a period of time I kept increasing and increasing c02 till the algae stopped growing and plant growth was almost a burden. I was using drop checkers for a while but the color was always solid yellow. and if you went by the ph/kh rule, the measured c02 would be off the charts. However the fish didn't seem to be affected by lack of o2, in fact the rasboras spawn on a regular basis. The other thing I noticed was small bubbles coating everything when the MH were on. o2 saturation I assumed.

So, 3 weeks ago I started a regimen to treat the tank for flukes and worms I decided to stop plant growth during this period and shut off the halides, raised the canopy, no c02 or EI. The treatment went well, no lost discus and I'm ready to get the tank where it was. Now I have a problem.

Even before I cranked the c02 back up I noticed fish gasping at the surface. The other day I had to put airstones in the tank. Obviously the plants aren't producing near enough o2.

Here's my questions.

Can there be an excessive amount of c02 in the tank as measured by my drop checker, as long as the plants are producing enough o2 as indicated by massive pearling? Does it work that way?

The more important question is how to get the plants back growing the way they were 3 weeks ago?


Thanks for any comments!

Steve

"Man has emerged from the depths of antiquity with a peregrine on his wrist."
calihawker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 01:57 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
CAM6467's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 614
I don't think that I could help you out much, but I would LOVE to see some pics of this 300 gallon beast of yours!

The one thing that I could tell you, though, is that surface agitation is the first thing to check when you're experiencing low oxygen levels. If you're pumping in massive amounts of CO2, you probably won't really get enough O2 in the system from pearling alone. Make sure you have some surface agitation.

But remember, pics would be really really cool!!

"Success is not the goal, it's merely a byproduct!"
- The Fraternity of Dirt #66 -
Just because it's dirt doesn't make it low-tech.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CAM6467 is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 02:03 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
mpodolan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (60/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lenox, MI
Posts: 1,484
Agreed regarding surface movement. Are the meds out of the tank completely? I know some meds can reduce O2 levels, so that's something worth considering

Mike


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mpodolan is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 03:51 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
calihawker's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cool, California
Posts: 77
When I first noticed fish at the surface I put a power head in to vigorously agitate the surface. A couple days after that I added the airstones.

Mike, that's a good point. There are still plenty of meds in the tank (prazipro). I'm doing a series of water changes now to end the treatment.

I'm not much of a photographer but I have a couple pics I can post.



Steve

"Man has emerged from the depths of antiquity with a peregrine on his wrist."
calihawker is offline  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 03:57 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
calihawker's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cool, California
Posts: 77
Here's a couple pics.












"Man has emerged from the depths of antiquity with a peregrine on his wrist."
calihawker is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 04:36 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
mpodolan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (60/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lenox, MI
Posts: 1,484
I forgot that this was your setup. This is a dream setup for me (and many others, I assume).

If you can, just lower the light and gradually increase co2 and ferts, along with good surface movement from your filters or powerheads to promote good gas exchange (note, this is different from agitation) after you get the water parameters in order. Then, you can increase the light/co2/ferts over time and get things back to where they need to be. You've done it before, so I'm sure you'll figure it out again

Mike


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mpodolan is offline  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 11:48 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
tazcrash69's Avatar
 
PTrader: (22/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hawthorne, NJ
Posts: 3,207
First, off, Nice looking tank, and discus. I see your Harlequin Rasboras don't tend to school either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calihawker View Post
Can there be an excessive amount of c02 in the tank as measured by my drop checker, as long as the plants are producing enough o2 as indicated by massive pearling? Does it work that way?
OK, I hope I get this right I'm a programmer, not a biologist, but here is how I understand it:

Yes, you can still suffocate a fish if you have tons of Oxygen in the water, but the CO2 level is too high.
CO2 will exit the fish's blood stream via the gills trying to get from a higher concentration area (the blood) to a lower concentration area (the surrounding water).
If the water contains very High levels of CO2, the fish will not be able to "breathe out" so to speak.


found an interesting article here:
http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/...in-aquaculture

Quote:
The effect of increased CO2 in water is to reduce the rate at which CO2 from the fish's own metabolism can be released from the blood through the gills, thus the CO2 in the blood also increases - this is known as hypercapnia - resulting in a drop in the blood pH, an acidosis. At the same time the oxygen-carrying ability of the haemoglobin in the blood is reduced.

BTW, I would love confirmation from a real biologist or just a generally smarter person, so I know if I can say this again.



ME

Walter

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Proud former member of:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


--May the floor under your tank always be dry, and your glass clear!!!
tazcrash69 is offline  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 01:09 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 423
Wow, that's really fascinating. I'd be curious to see some data on dissolved CO2 in the wild in various biotopes, and compare this with injected CO2 in the tank, because I presume that if they at all compare, I wouldn't expect a pathological uptake of HCO3 in either place, at least if a place with comparable levels of CO2, fish load, and organic matter, etc., was undertaken. Interesting side note on possible etiology of deformities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazcrash69 View Post
First, off, Nice looking tank, and discus. I see your Harlequin Rasboras don't tend to school either.



OK, I hope I get this right I'm a programmer, not a biologist, but here is how I understand it:

Yes, you can still suffocate a fish if you have tons of Oxygen in the water, but the CO2 level is too high.
CO2 will exit the fish's blood stream via the gills trying to get from a higher concentration area (the blood) to a lower concentration area (the surrounding water).
If the water contains very High levels of CO2, the fish will not be able to "breathe out" so to speak.


found an interesting article here:
http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/...in-aquaculture




BTW, I would love confirmation from a real biologist or just a generally smarter person, so I know if I can say this again.



ME

"So far":
hokuryu is offline  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
calihawker's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cool, California
Posts: 77
Thanks taz, that's a great article. Just the info I was looking for

You know, the thing I've learned most is to question the validity of any test that I do, especially in regards to c02. That's forced me to rely on probably the most fundamental test there is. Observation. I read on these forums all the time about people chasing their tails with the ph/kh charts or believing their drop checkers as gospel when the truth is, without laboratory grade equipment, these methods are no more than a guidline. A rough estimate, so to speak.

Thanks again!


Steve

"Man has emerged from the depths of antiquity with a peregrine on his wrist."
calihawker is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-06-2009, 03:42 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
ColeMan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by calihawker View Post
You know, the thing I've learned most is to question the validity of any test that I do, especially in regards to c02. That's forced me to rely on probably the most fundamental test there is. Observation. I read on these forums all the time about people chasing their tails with the ph/kh charts or believing their drop checkers as gospel when the truth is, without laboratory grade equipment, these methods are no more than a guidline. A rough estimate, so to speak.
If only everyone could see the light, Steve! Right on!
ColeMan is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome