Which ADA liquid ferts do I need if I'm going to use ADA only ferts? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 09:48 AM Thread Starter
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Which ADA liquid ferts do I need if I'm going to use ADA only ferts?

I'm tired of using the EI method and not coming up with the results I want. Especially when every shop owner in Hong Kong recommended me to use ADA ferts only. From what I get from the ADA catalog the Green Brighty Step series are for trace elements. Green Bright Special Lights and Brighty K supply the NPK. Is this correct?

Also, has anyone used the ADA metal filter inlet/outlets? If so how are they?
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by trckrunrmike View Post
I'm tired of using the EI method and not coming up with the results I want. Especially when every shop owner in Hong Kong recommended me to use ADA ferts only. From what I get from the ADA catalog the Green Brighty Step series are for trace elements. Green Bright Special Lights and Brighty K supply the NPK. Is this correct?

Also, has anyone used the ADA metal filter inlet/outlets? If so how are they?
Mike, just curious - what are you experiencing that is less than satisfactory, using EI?
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by trckrunrmike View Post
I'm tired of using the EI method and not coming up with the results I want.
Are you sure it's the fertilizers, and not something else?

Here are some tanks that use EI, no name brands needed:




(Above photos from Tom Barr)


There's more to the equation than what company makes your fertilizers.


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by eyebeatbadgers View Post
Are you sure it's the fertilizers, and not something else?

Here are some tanks that use EI, no name brands needed:

*****


There's more to the equation than what company makes your fertilizers.
Man, those are beautiful, eyebeat. I agree with you - elements and compounds are elements and compounds, and plant physiology is well established. As much as I respect and use Seachem as a company, for instance, pretty tough to justify spending something like 44X the price of dry ferts. From Rex Grigg's site:

Quote:
Why would you want to use bulk nutrients. Well here are some numbers.
  • If you are dosing 60gallons of water with Flourish Potassium you would need 100 ml to get to 20 ppm.
  • If you are dosing 60 gallons of water with Flourish Phosphorus you would need to dose 48 ml to get to 1 ppm.
  • If you are dosing 60 gallons of water with Flourish Nitrogen you would need to dose 30 ml to get to 10 ppm.
  • Flourish Potassium is $6 mail order for 500 ml. So if you dose once a week that bottle will last you 5 weeks. Cost would $1.25 a week to dose potassium.
  • Flourish Phosphorus is $7.50 mail order for 500 ml. So if you dose once a week that bottle would last you 10 weeks. Cost would be 75 a week to dose Phosphorus.
  • Seachem Nitrogen is $7.50 mail order for 500 ml. So if you dose once a week that bottle will last you 16 weeks. Cost would be 47 a week to dose nitrates.
  • Total cost for one dose a week with Seachem $~2.75. Note there is no shipping factored in here and there are some rounding errors.

To dose the same tank with bulk nutrients.
  • Nitrates 2 a dose.
  • Phosphates .2 a dose. Note that is 5 doses for a penny.
  • Total cost for one dose a week with dry nutrients 6.2

Seachem products cost 44X as much per week. Note these prices do not include shipping charges and there are some rounding errors. So that pretty much settles that one.
And I think the same holds for ADA. It all comes down to value - not price, to me - what value for what outlay?
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 03:36 PM
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20$ for a 500ml bottle of water, I can sell you some.
or pay tom barr a few bux for the formula you can then make your own
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 07:08 PM
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Anyone wanna send me money?
Did I read that right?

Please, if you feel guilty...........I do not want anyone to feel guilty

It is not me........folks did this long before I came around, I got 99% of my info from Paul Sears, Kevin and Steve Dixon , George Booth etc.

They do not post much if at all any more though

Dupla was the $$$$$$ brand back then, today, 20-15 years later, it's ADA. Same baloney though.

And same bunch that think the brand name is easy,easier and gives 100% success.

Honestly, your brain fell out the window if you fall for that baloney.
No method is 100%, there are many other factors besides nutrients in the water column.
You still have to read instructions, you still have issues with light and CO2, even using ADA brand.

Once you make the first DIY version of the ferts, after.............it's old hat. No harder than dosing ADA.

Actually easier, because a few pounds of KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4/GH booster, Traces...........will last several years, and you will not have to pay 20-30$ for a little 500mls bottle and then reorder it etc.

Many ADA folks that bought things initially still use the bottles, but add their own DIY to the mix.

I did a very critical analysis for the liquid ADA fert line already.
So we know how much and what specifically is in it.

Here's James' tank using EI, he had 8 months in when he took this pic in the hobby, so he's a newbie, butit does show that folks can do it, and that other things beside the bull that many methods claim about excess nutrients, are extactly that, bull.

This is james' picture, not mine.


They don't "know" if it causes anything. And when can easily falsify such claim by doing what they claim causes issues and algae.



I do like ADA, I like some products, the glasware is nice, but cheaper brands are as nice these days, the tanks are also nice, I can find some local rimless tank makers that are cheaper and as good............lights......don't care for, they looknice, but don't put out much PAR(A critical factor) and the sediment , the ADA aqua soil is good and I like that, but do not care for the powersand.

Like anything, I like some things, things that work and have some significant effect, whether it is aesthetic or practical. I do not buy everything that ADa makes or buy into the rational I know and can easily disprove and flasify with simple examples.

Most companies make some decent stuff and some that are not so hot.

Penac? Woud you buy that also? ADa sells it and gives you some garbage poem about that also, or tourmaline? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline

You know SiO2, aka glass is source of O2?
That's the same bull that folks that add tourmaline believe, it's not available to the plants/fish, even though it's technically in the mineral
It's popular in holistic homeopathic marketed snake oil. You'd better question products when they include this type of marketing junk.

Otherwise, just send me your 20$, more if you feel guilty

Focus on moderate to low light, good CO2(focus mostly on this and tweaking it), adn then consistent good water changes, dosing, trimming and gardening.

Here's an ADA example of that:


BTW, I saw this tank 3 days ago and it was covered in BBA, green hair algae etc, it looked pretty bad. It got 20th overall in the ADA contest last year.

So was it possible, even with a full time staff, using the full ADA, to mess things up?

You bet.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 05:37 AM
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haha, i saw this tank two days ago, and indeed...a good bit of algae.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 05:41 AM Thread Starter
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My problem with using the EI method are huge plants. Yes I know I'm using a lot of ferts. Yes I know that I have 3wpg. Yet I get large distances between nodes on my stem plants and larger than normal plants. I have yet to see this anywhere else (friends tanks, Hong Kong shops, or Aquaforest) and those people/places are using almost identical light, CO2, etc as I am.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 05:52 AM
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So you're looking to use ADA ferts to slow growth, eh? I bet they'd love to hear that...

Why not just tweak your own EI routine? I've run EI really lean before for the same reason (I didn't want to trim the tank every week either) and had really good results. Why not turn down the lights and adjust your dosing? Less light = less demand for nutrients; plants using less nutrients = less fertilization; lower levels of available nutrients = slower growth. What do ya think?
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
BTW, I saw this tank 3 days ago and it was covered in BBA, green hair algae etc, it looked pretty bad. It got 20th overall in the ADA contest last year.

So was it possible, even with a full time staff, using the full ADA, to mess things up?

You bet.

Regards,
Tom Barr
You were there the same day I was, I see their shop tanks often and I was kind of surprised to see as much BBA as was in there. As well a good amount of their other tanks were sporting BBA. It was like they have been on vacation.

Still received great service and they were overwhelmed with a rush of customers at the time.

B
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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Not faster growth but abnormal growth. So is anyone going to answer my original question or just keep telling me how to use my money
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trckrunrmike View Post
Not faster growth but abnormal growth. So is anyone going to answer my original question or just keep telling me how to use my money
I think what you might be seeing, Mike, is that people might be puzzled by your ascription of a plant problem to a method with known results, without ruling out other issues first; and further, you're wanting to go to a fertilizer routine costing buckets more than other fertilizers - taking a look at this page, alone, each 500 ml bottle costs, what, 3x-10X what Flourish typically costs, and Flourish is something like 40X more expensive than dry ferts - well, I think this gives most pause. All I can say is that, following EI, my tank has explosive and healthy growth, and if anything, I have created a lush, high-maintenance jungle to deal with. Plants are happy as is biologically possible, I'd say, at $0.06 per week.

Your choice, of course, but I think this is why you may not have heard a lot in the vein you were hoping for.

"So far":
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 03:44 PM
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I think the folks are answering your question.
This is not just about money.

As far as answering your question, I thin the Hong Kong saleman already "answered" your question. So why not ask them rather than ask here?
They'll tell you what you want to hear rather than the truth.

Your goal is not ADA ferts, rather, reduced growth rates.
At least that is what you are telling us.........and reducing the rate of growth via light, will improve the abnormal growth, mostly from reduced CO2 demand which is tougher to dial in good at higher light. I only get abnormal growth when I mess up the CO2, ADA is no different. It's not due to the ferts in and of themselves, I have not such issues and have shown this for decades.

This is NOT a fert question, this is a plat growth question which is far more than a simple 1 part answer with respect to nutrients. Nutrients are not the end all to everything plant growth, which is why I mentioned the ADA 180 at AF as an exmaple. The dosing of ferts is the same(easy to do), but the results are not. Likewise, EI ferts in the pics above show no issues with plants/algae as well. We can only conclude that other factors than ferts are the causes for such issues.

Is this agreed?

ADA, and Aqua Forest etc use LOW lighting.

They also use rich sediments, eg ADA aqua soil. That's where most of the nutrients come from along with some from the fish waste.

This is an easy method because of low light, not because of low nutrients/ADA liquid ferts etc.

I am not some Hong Kong guy trying to sell you ADA either
I get nothing out the help I am offering.
Why not think about that? What do I have to gain?
Nothing.

What do they gain by suggesting a DIY product that they cannot make $$$ on? ADA? That's why they market things, put a nice little poem and nice box and push a perception. Why? Because folks fall for it. Even when the option to save a lot of $ exists.

Faith vs fact.

BTW, I already did a full chemical analysis for liquid brighty series ADA ferts.
I know what is in them.

I know they are not going to save you or reach your goal. What will happen is they will try to sell you other products as that part alone will not help you reach that goal.

The ADA ferts work well when you have low light, good CO2, and do good frequent water changes AND...........ADA AS etc. And even then, as you can tell from even a top scaper that uses ADA only........can have less than perfect results even in the best cases.........

That is not solely a nutrient issue.
As EI clearly points out.

Now you can, as suggested by several folks more in the know, can simply lean up EI, EI is not written in stone, it's more just a concept than a particular dosing method. Many use it leaner and for an ADA tank with low light, cutting it by 1/2 , and with a good fish load, maybe even lower, is fine.

Do you have ADA AS?
That is important because that is a huge massive source of nutrients, that+ low light is how ADA gets away with very lean water column dosing.

Yes, the metal inlet pipes are nicer IMO, I've never broken one yet unlike the lily pipes. I do not like the round globe Do! ADA pipes at all, the narrow ones and the older ones give better flow and mix the CO2 better.

I think you'll do far better to reduce the light. This will reduce growth rates and be far more stable than any other possible method you might come up with. BTW, I've measured 8 different ADA lighting systems and they are all low light. You need to understand that otherwise you will continue to have issues.

Details as far as the sediment are also important if anyone is going to give you advice as far as ADA liquid ferts.

Plenty of folks get the results they desire without ADA liquids ferts and many use ADA AS with EI(like myself).

It's not the method that fails, it's us These are common sense factors that are measurable and that we can see from basic plant growth physiology, it all starts with light which drives CO2 demand which drives nutrient uptake.

Of these, light is the most stable and gives you beautiful results regardless of the method of dosing. Want faster growth: add more light, more CO2 more nutrients. Less growth: less light, good CO2 and good nutrients.

Cost: nothing.

I'm not telling you what to do with your money, that's the ADA folk's job. I'd rather educate folks more about general principles which is far more useful to the hobbyist. Then they can make their own informed decisions, use their reasoning and buy what they need to achieve their goals.

Then they can also better help others that are coming into this hobby.
Which is all the intent here is about thus far from everyone.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 04:07 PM
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The ADA ferts work well when you have low light, good CO2, and do good frequent water changes AND...........
A fat wallet?


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