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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Bad advice

I was unfaithful last night. I was bored and started looking around at other aquatic forums. I was at one that I had joined before I found this site and the barr site and a person was asking about putting plants in his new tank. His question was and I quote “I am about to begin the cycle - water is declorinated and I got the amonia - but there are no plants or aquascaping yet - is it ok to add plants and aquascape while planting?” The answer was and I quote “You can, but its not recommended. All that ammonia can kill the plants, create an algae bloom and disturb the bacteria in the substrate. It is ok to put a few plants in there, but I wouldn't be tearing it up arranging your full on scape just yet.” The guy answering the post had almost four thousand post and from reading his bio the people on the forum thought of him as a great aquarist(is that even a word). I sent the OP a pm directing him to come here for some correct information.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 02:05 PM
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This is common and not unusual. You still have people posting and warning people about how they should be careful with dosing phosphates and nitrates as they will get algae blooms from excess nitrates and phosphates. You still have people who have never set up planted tanks using pool filter sand warning people not to set up planted tanks using pool filter sand, when there are an overwhelming number of people who have set up planted tanks with pool filer sand with great results. Lol, I have even seen someone recommend not dechlorinating tap water that was going to be used in a planted shrimp tank. What you saw was no different.

However with respect you your concern, I agree, he should have directed that poster here:
http://www.rexgrigg.com/cycle.htm

Last edited by Homer_Simpson; 02-28-2009 at 05:02 PM.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 03:42 PM
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I joined in the fun at another site too, when I was looking for an alternative to a forum I had just abandoned. The overall quality of advice there bothered me so much, and I got so tired of feeling that I just had to correct everyone else's advice, that I gave it up and came back here. Of course I don't agree with everyone here either, but the overall level of advice here is very, very good.

Fortunately, I realize that I'm wrong often enough to throttle down my need to correct those I disagree with, unless I just get out of bed on the wrong side. Hopefully, as I learn more I can reduce the percentage of "wrong advice" I hand out too

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
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I think there is little chance, but it can happen.
I heard from threads that their plant was melting in their newly setup tank due to the ammonia
Coming from the AS?
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloth View Post
...people on the forum thought of him as a great aquarist(is that even a word).
Yes, Veloth, aquarist is a word:

aquar·ist
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈkwa-rist, -ˈkwer-ist\
Function: noun
Date: 1900
Definition: a person who keeps or maintains an aquarium
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeMan View Post
Yes, Veloth, aquarist is a word:

aquar·ist
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈkwa-rist, -ˈkwer-ist\
Function: noun
Date: 1900
Definition: a person who keeps or maintains an aquarium
Thanks but I was just being facetious , I guess it didn't work
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenbarb View Post
I think there is little chance, but it can happen.
I heard from threads that their plant was melting in their newly setup tank due to the ammonia
Coming from the AS?
From what I understand and this is not meant as a correction or alternative advise. The melting of plants first put into new Aquasoil has to do more with the modification of water parameters KH, PH, GH, and the plants needing more time to properly acclimitize to such modifications until the the Aquasoil matures sufficiently and the water parameters level off. There was a great big long thread discussing this, but I cannot find it. Basically people resolved the issue by letting the tank with aquasoil tank sit barren. Water was still put in and frequent water changes were done to address ammonia leaching from the substrate, but plants were only introduced into the tank two weeks or so after this and people claim they experienced no melting likely because the water parameters had sufficiently stabilized not to shock the plants as much. Take it FWIW.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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I was playing around with a twenty gallon plants only tank. I slowly increased and then kept the ammonia at 8.0 ppm with no problems for several weeks. I guess my low Ph was the reason the plants didn't die.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 07:08 PM
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No, the reason was that plants are not overly impressed by 8ppm.


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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 07:09 PM
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I agree with Hoppy, that even here, you will get differing answers to questions from various people. What I find though, is most have a good history of raising great plants and they are sharing their experience and what works for them. We all have differing setup's so its great to get the input, but in the end, you need to decide which advice to follow, based on what more closely resembles your setup.

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 02:09 AM
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I also agree with Hoppy. There are many differing opinions on various issues, and you have to be real carefull about judging someones well intended advice. Any advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Many people are too quick to jump on a band wagon of a current mode of thinking or because it comes from the mouth of some "guru". Think thru any advice for yourself and come to your own conclusions or cross reference it to other sources no matter how much you trust the person giving you the advice, but bear in mind everyone has good intentions and is speaking from there own experience or interpretation.

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 02:28 AM
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Interesting - going through something like this in my new 10 gallon NPT.

I planted heavy with crypts, najas, sunset hygro, needle leaf java fern, regular java fern, H. 'compact' corymbosa, H. difformis, L. repens, xmas moss, E. quadricostatus. 10 white clouds. Soil. 2 x 27W spiral CF, 1 x 15W T8.

Big NH3 outbreaks, which I'm dealing with by a daily regimen of Prime and Stability, and Seachem's "ammonia alert" as a monitoring device, until the tank is fully cycled. (Re-cycled, actually - used the black gravel that was in place in the tank, as well as the existing HOB - fully cycled with mulm, etc).

I've experienced moderate to severe plant injury, depending on the plant species. The corymbosa has really taken a beating, melting and translucent pretty generally; the needle leaf isn't doing well, and the wisteria plants have generally looked like they're experiencing deficiencies - yellowing and some leaf curling. Brown diatoms everywhere. I had thought much of this was due to the fact that most of these plants came from my 20H, hi-tech, and they were in shock due to a lower intake "charge" of light, CO2, ferts. But I also sniffed that it was wild water and soil parameters that may be at play.

In response, I'm leaving the tank untouched. Outside of feeding, and the daily dosing of Prime, Stability and 1 ml. excel, not doing anything else - no ferts, nothing. I plan on not changing the water, and seeing what happens, as long as the fauna exhibit good health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer_Simpson View Post
From what I understand and this is not meant as a correction or alternative advise. The melting of plants first put into new Aquasoil has to do more with the modification of water parameters KH, PH, GH, and the plants needing more time to properly acclimitize to such modifications until the the Aquasoil matures sufficiently and the water parameters level off. There was a great big long thread discussing this, but I cannot find it. Basically people resolved the issue by letting the tank with aquasoil tank sit barren. Water was still put in and frequent water changes were done to address ammonia leaching from the substrate, but plants were only introduced into the tank two weeks or so after this and people claim they experienced no melting likely because the water parameters had sufficiently stabilized not to shock the plants as much. Take it FWIW.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 02:57 AM
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Lol, I knew someone would jump on that comment that is why I stated that it was not meant as advice or a correction to the original issue. When I first this forum, I fell into the same habit as others, which was to parrot what others had said, without any real experience with the issues at hand. Now I dispense advice based on what I experience with my own setups and what I learn from my personal discussions with fellow hobbyists in my city who have tanks to die for. It is up to people to look at this and any contradictory advice, set up tanks as they see fit, and evaluate and draw their own conclusions.

With respect to your experience hokuryu, if you check out my first signature tanks, you will see that my experience with a 5 gallon NPT tank was similar to yours. I tried to be patient, but when it got to the point where nothing would suvive in the tank, I pulled the plug on it. I couldn't continue with fish/shrimp genocide in the name of Science.

Despite that I would still not discourage anyone from trying a Natural Planted Tank themselves and drawing their own conclusions. As you can see from the link below, this guy got explosive plant growth off the bat, he did not cycle his natural planted tank, his swordtail fry did quite well, and his cherry shrimp were reproducing like crazy. All of this in a uncycled natural planted tank with no water changes. For me such differences motivate met to try and uncover what could explain such contradictory experiences.
It is an interesting thread in its own right that you may find interesting in lieu of what is going on with your tank.
http://www.winnipegfishforum.info/fo...?topic=21968.0
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 03:08 AM
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Yeah, well plants will only consume ammonium if they are GROWING. If they are not growing and the ammonia levels are high enough, it may burn some delicate, thin leafed plants. 8ppm is not very high.

When you are talking in generalities, (not you, but people in general) there are wholes in the story. To say you should not start a tank cycling with plants is misleading, and to say you should only use a small amount of plants doesn't seem to make much sense either, (so I agree with Veloth) If you cram a tank with fast growing stem plants and have bright enough light to have immediate growth, the plants will consume ammonium before it reaches dangerous levels. If the light is not bright enough to spur fast enough growth and the plants have not yet acclimated to begin their growth cycle, then the ammonium levels will get high enough to burn the plants.

This in my opinion is why Diana Walstads warning to air out soil to remove ammonia before putting the soil in your tank when following her low tech approach makes sense. Low tech set ups generally have low light levels that are not bright enough to have fast enough plant growth to use ammonia quickly.

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 03:31 AM
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hmm i have had my bad advice but ever since i join here i been getting great advice since im new to aquariums in general less than 8 months experience, but i am learning a lot here and everyone is so nice here i dont even bother joining another forum because i know i have all the help i need hear. most people though dont really cycle their tanks and just jump into fish i like to do fishless cycling it works very well =)

42 gallon hex journal coming soon
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