New 4ft Tank Instant Cycle Question - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 01:12 AM Thread Starter
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New 4ft Tank Instant Cycle Question

Hi everyone

I'm currently migrating from two fully established planted 50l tanks to a single 200l tank. I've been in the hobby around 6 months so my experience is limited.

The new tank has an Otto 1200l/hr canister filter to which I have added the foam (cut into smaller pieces so its spread evenly) and ceramic noodles, and a cup of gravel in a mesh bag from one of the other established tanks. The other tanks have been running for 6months and are completely cycled and ammonia free.

The new tank has been running for 7 days with a few of the cheaper fish for an ammonia source. 6 neons, 6 Endlers. Here the readings over this time.

Day One:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Day 4:
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 2.5

Day 6:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0

PH is steady at 7.4

My question is... Is this the maximum ammonia spike I can expect because of the seeded media? Can I assume as its dropped to zero and the nitrate is 5.0 that the bacteria colony has formed enough to start neutralising the ammonia?

Can I start to add my more expensive fish from the smaller tanks?

Currently left in the smaller tank:
2 Corys
1 Peppermint BN (Juvenile)
Pair of Blue Rams
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 01:53 AM
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The bacteria colony is dying off to match the smaller load.

I would add nitrifying bacteria with each addition of fish, do not cycle with fish. Even cheap fish have feelings.

Read the label on bottled bacteria and look for Nitrospira species of bacteria.

Alternate:
If you are going to take down the smaller tank then put all the filter media (sponges, floss, bio... everything) from that tank into a mesh bag and hang it somewhere in the new tank. Then remove that media slowly over a period of about a month, say 25% each week.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 02:10 AM
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Just my opinion, which is backed by a few reputable LFS's here in LA. But try and find some Dr. Tim's "One and Only." Instant cycled tank within 24hrs or less.

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 02:24 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tip Tyrone. Ill see if I can find some here in Australia.

A question though... How can the BB in the bottle live without a source of ammonia. Something that I have always wondered about the bottled stuff from LFS.
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 05:54 AM
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Hi Welcome to TPT. I used One and Only along with the surfactant free ammonia on my 125gal and my tank cycled in less the one week. I only have maybe 20 small fish tetras and rams so I know my bacteria decreased greatly because the amount of waste the fish are adding is not enough to support the bacteria the commercial ammonia created.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levellers View Post
Thanks for the tip Tyrone. Ill see if I can find some here in Australia.

A question though... How can the BB in the bottle live without a source of ammonia. Something that I have always wondered about the bottled stuff from LFS.
I found an article at http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Bacte...o_they_work%3F that mentions Nitrospira bacteria. A couple of excerpts:

"SeaChem launched Stability in 2004, another bacteria seeding product that claims instant addition of fish. This product however doesn't want to release the name of the species of bacteria it holds. But does say that it also contains a third species that also claims to break down mulm. This product also has the benefit that it doesn't require cooling in the shop as the bacteria are kept in a suspended spore state until added to the aquarium. By keeping the bacteria in a spore state, the temperature of the bottle hardly matters and it can even be frozen or heated to quite high temperatures without ill effects. It also claims to have a long shelf-life of around 4 years. I've used this product myself as its more widely available in the UK than BIO-spira. It certainly prevented my 250 Litres (66 US G.) tank with its load of fish from another smaller tank from suffering any ill effects. I didn't notice any ammonia spike during my daily testing for the first 2 weeks!"

Hints on growing bacteria:

" Tips on promoting the growth of the bacteria

Nitrifying bacteria do not like being in water that is too soft. So if your water has a KH of less than 3d (53.6ppm), a GH of less than 3d (53.6ppm) and a pH of less than 7, you may need to increase the KH and GH if you want faster growth of the bacteria in your filter. (See the links above for how to do this.) Though Seachem do claim that their Stability species of bacteria works well over a far wider pH and GH level.[2]

Keeping the water warm (over 25C (77F) ) promotes the speed of its reproduction.

Keep total ammonia levels to less than 1 ppm and any nitrite to less than 1 ppm as otherwise the high levels will suppress the growth of the nitrospira bacteria converting the nitrite into nitrate."



Article by --Quatermass 16:27, 6 May 2007 (CDT). Updated --Quatermass 15:31, 20 April 2008 (CDT) & 20:26, 3 March 2009, 6 June 2010

MY TANK: Planted 10g; 2 x 10W CFL; Fluval U2 internal filter; MGOCPM/black sand cap

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Nice! Spore state it is then... Very interesting.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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This hobby always has something new to learn. Its no wonder people get addicted!
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 10:37 AM
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"Nitrifying bacteria do not like being in water that is too soft. So if your water has a KH of less than 3d (53.6ppm), a GH of less than 3d (53.6ppm) and a pH of less than 7, you may need to increase the KH and GH if you want faster growth of the bacteria in your filter. (See the links above for how to do this.) Though Seachem do claim that their Stability species of bacteria works well over a far wider pH and GH level.[2]"

IMO this is a good reason to keep KH, GH, and pH at at least those recommended levels all the time.

MY TANK: Planted 10g; 2 x 10W CFL; Fluval U2 internal filter; MGOCPM/black sand cap

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 12:06 PM
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bacteria are not dying off to match an ammonia level.


Stirred up organics released ammonia and that temporarily overcame nitrification abilities. We kill bacteria by adding antibiotics only.

Lastly, we don't have an ammonia reading for this tank as API can simply indicate ammonia where there is none, we can post some links by the tons. API is helpful to show drastic changes in ammonia like death of a large fish, or stirred up sand bed waste in this instance if the kit is reading right.

Your cycle maintained just fine no bottle bac is needed. The ammonia will drop as its oxidized from existing and numerous bacterial colonies and since your move is done, most of the rot w concentrate back down in the sandbed where its not exposed to topwater.


making a tank fallow of fish does not down regulate bacterial levels measurably we have too many pockets of organics in planted tanks feeding them

common aquarium activities do not kill off large amounts of bacterial colonies




many threads show tanks going fallow of fish for half a year to wipe out ich (remove the host) and then reintroduction with no ammonia spike. its the abundant surface area we keep in tanks, that vital space doesnt just go sterile when we remove fish. Those bacterial communities are self perpetuating in many ways

lots of things from minor temperature changes and water changes might have affects on individual bacteria, but as a whole the colonies are unaffected in their nitrification abilities. What actually sets your bacteria loading is the amount of surface area and time given *any* amount of trace feed material for bacteria, you absolutely dont have to spike ammonia or carry X amount of fish to keep a biological filter going although they help seed a brand new one in place faster than with no direct ammonia addition. Still, the rule holds--with water and time even a tank you didnt add ammonia to will certain contain trace ammonia from many sources and it too will self cycle in a longer time span.



We did a six page thread on this recently.

small old reef tank:

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Last edited by brandon429; 11-01-2014 at 01:21 PM. Reason: bacteria arent dying off
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-01-2014, 02:10 PM
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The bacteria may very well be living off whatever organics (actually nitrogen containing matter) are decomposing in the tank.
But when more ammonia is added (ie more fish, meaning you add more fish food) the bacteria population has stabilized to match the original condition (slow release of ammonia from decomposing things) and now has to handle the sudden increase of ammonia that the bacteria population is not ready for, in addition to what it was handling before.
Before: Decomposing things.
After: Decomposing things + fish food.
This can cause an ammonia spike in the refurbished tank.
You can increase the population of bacteria before you add the new fish in several ways, but I would not just add the fish. If the plants are dense and thriving they can handle the increased waste load.

Much safer to add more bacteria (Nitrospira species) when you add more fish. That way you know for sure that the tank has enough.

I am currently feeding virtual fish in a new set up, in anticipation of adding fish. Since fish food is the source of the majority of ammonia in the tank I am doing a fishless cycle by adding fish food just like I will be doing when I add fish. The plants are small, and are not well established, so they are not going to be as helpful at removing ammonia yet. None of the decor came from established tanks, so there is only the amount of bacteria that came in on the leaves of the plants.
In this example the paired equations are:
Before: Decomposing things + fish food.
After: Decomposing things + fish food.
Net: No ammonia spike.
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