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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-15-2014, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Pps pro?

I have been dosing PPS PRO for about 10 days now. My tank is heavily planted and a heavy fish load. I just tested my NO3 and it read O ppm. I used the recommended 33 grams per 500 ml. bottle. I have a 32 Gallon tank and would like to tweak this a little to obtain 10 to 20 ppm nitrates. Does anyone have any long term tweaking ideas? Up until last week I was doing weekly water changes. I plan on no water changes until I need one now with the new system.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-15-2014, 06:24 PM
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Switching to ei dosing would be in your best interest. Or simple add 1/8-1/2 tsp of dry kno3 weekly or twice weekly.

75 Gallon Low Tech w/ Green Terror Pair
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-15-2014, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Since I already started with the PPS Pro, I would like to give it a shot. I don't have the time to trim plants and do weekly water changes. If I must I will switch to EI. So you are saying about 1 additional gram per week of kno3? is that correct? Can I just dump it dry right into the water column?

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-15-2014, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pezrock View Post
Since I already started with the PPS Pro, I would like to give it a shot. I don't have the time to trim plants and do weekly water changes. If I must I will switch to EI. So you are saying about 1 additional gram per week of kno3? is that correct? Can I just dump it dry right into the water column?
I do EI and do not trim or do weekly water changes on some tanks, some tanks I do, but dosing has nothing to do with water changes or trim frequencies, that's a logical fallacy.

My Buce tank gets few water changes, about once every 2-4 weeks.
A simple water changer hook makes the job extremely easy, it's not a question of labor or time. I spend maybe 15 minutes every 2 weeks on it.



But a tank like the 120 gallon full of stem plants and shallow tank depth, there's no way you can avoid water changes and trimming regardless of the dosing methods.




The species of plants chosen make a far more significant impact of trim frequency than that of any dosing routine. Th other larger factor is simply using LESS light. This makes growth slower and more manageable, ferts are a minor aspect in all this and it's an extremely weak selling point.
But new people are easily swayed by being told what they want to hear.
If a method has to do that to make its argument, frankly it needs a better argument.

Focus on good CO2, low to moderate light, rich sediments, slower growing plants or plants that do not bolt to the surface. Water changes are among the best most simple management tool, frankly anyone that tells folks not to do them or here's a trick to avoid them is doing a disservice to the hobby and to the new hobbyists. Particularly on new set ups and new hobbyists.

They are telling you what you WANT to hear, not what you should hear.
You should plan on doing them often till a new tank grows in and till you have things going very well/more experienced.

If you really want a tank without much care of water changes, then a non CO2 tank done correctly sounds more ideal to your goal. You can google that or search for that here on TPT. A hybrid method is to use low to moderate light and Excel dosing. You'll get more growth, but about 1/3rd that of say CO2 gas. But then you have dose the ferts/Excel daily. Water change maybe once a month or so.

So there's a few things that get you to the goal in a much better holistic way. Mostly changes in plant species, light, CO2 or not...........and something like a simple easy way to do a water change, like this:



Hang on the tank to drain, then connect the end to the shower head to refill, add dechlorinator, you can change 50-60% of a 70 Gallon tank in 15 minutes. While you wait? You trim, clean the filter etc. This is hardly any work or time at all.

If you do not have time for that, then it's unlikely you have time for a planted tank generally.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 12:16 AM
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dosing has nothing to do with water changes..., that's a logical fallacy.
Did I misinterpreted that statement?

The dosing AMOUNT we use does have a strong correlation with water changes. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. That's a basic premise I've relied on.

Maintaining non-limiting levels is influenced by dosage, uptake and water changes correct? Simply look at Wet's accumulation calculator. This makes logical sense to me.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 12:23 AM Thread Starter
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Wow!

I love the water change tool you made. I am currently using a python and I have to stand there and hold it. I am going to try and build one of these. Maybe I can use a Python/DIY Hybrid. I love this hobby but every minute in my day counts. I need to be able to complete plant trimming/filter clean/power head clean and water change in under an hour. Currently it takes me 1:30 which is now down from 2:00 on Sat. morning. With 20 minute tank maintenance about 3 to 4 days out of the week. I guess I will give EI a shot after I make this tool tomorrow and give it a test run. I do some fast growers and I am unwilling to give them up. Too beautiful.

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 12:33 AM
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This is totally unrelated to planted tanks. However, take it from an 'ole man that's been around and been in your shoes. When you don't have a few hours a week to spare doing absolutely nothing...re-evaluate what you're doing. It took me many years to learn to work to live and not live to work. There is a huge difference and the rewards are pretty nice when you work to live.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Did I misinterpreted that statement?

The dosing AMOUNT we use does have a strong correlation with water changes. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. That's a basic premise I've relied on.

Maintaining non-limiting levels is influenced by dosage, uptake and water changes correct? Simply look at Wet's accumulation calculator. This makes logical sense to me.
If you included the rest of the sentence and the OP comment in the context.

Basically they do not want to trim, that does not matter regarding dosing, in other words, dosing is independent of the need to trim.
PPS, ADA, EI, SeaChem etc......

Give the goal of not wanting to trim, much or at all for the most part....
I'd say/argue that good choice of plant species that do NOT require much or any trimming......for the aquarium would be a better way to avoid trimming, not some proprietary dosing scheme.

Anyone with common sense and experience growing aquatic plants knows that to be true. You might end up trimming say once once every 3 weeks instead of once every 2 weeks for faster growing stems, hardly any real benefit.
And if you have low light, then it will not matter much at all.

So low to the moderate light, next CO2, perhaps none of that also, that will leading to "trimming" much more often than dosing schemes. Excel might be happy medium, some growth, but far from rapid. Or non CO2/no excel methods also.

So light, plant choices and no CO2/ or maybe Excel, good wise polant choices.......and at the very end..........you might use less ferts, but you can simply not dose much PO4 and EI works the same there. These are all better management methods if you consider Liebig's law. Dosing alone cannot manage growth, reduce trimming, reduce water changes and reduce algae all on it's own.

At low light, PPS is non limiting.
It is limiting at high light however.
EI is non limiting in either case.

But water changes are rather arbitrary, some folks have not done them for lon time frames with EI, likewise some do them frequently with PPS.

But suggesting that simply because you do not want to trim much due to a lack of time.....and then thinking a dosing scheme alone will do better than another, no, that's not going to offer you much. I'd suggest the Excel and wise plant choice, low/moderate light, good sediments, make any water change routine much easier.

It's just a bad idea to suggest folks avoid water changes.
Advance folks can if they really think it is some badge of expertise........Amano, myself, ADG, most top scapers disagree.

Ripariums are also good alternatives also for folks that want to avoid the labor/care.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 12:52 AM
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Thanks for the reply. That makes more sense to me now. I thought if I misunderstood, others may have as well. We don't need anymore myths or confusion in this hobby. It seems I spend more time telling people that this or that myth is not true rather than advancing the hobby. Frustrating.

I can take one important concept from this. Rather than assume people want maximal "everything" we need to instead ask "what do YOU want". Not everyone wants crazy growth and high maintenance. I myself am guilty of shoving EI, CO2 injection etc. down others throat. I'll have to be more clear on what the fellow hobbyist expects or wants rather than my own expectations. As I've always said, a "perfect" low tech balanced tank is harder than a high tech tank. Finding that balance seems more difficult than farming plants IMO.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 04:06 AM Thread Starter
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Wow. After hours of reading and trying to come up with the right calculations I decided I will continue with PPS Pro and add additional KNO3 for a few weeks. If I am not happy I will switch to EI and try that. Can anyone run these numbers for me to see if they are all correct. My main concern and the one I am not sure of is the CSM+B. If I do decide to switch I want to be prepared with correct numbers for a 31 to 32 gallon tank.

DRY

SATURDAY----- 50% WATER CHANGE THEN ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
SUNDAY-------- ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
MONDAY-------ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
TUESDAY-------ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
WEDNESDAY--ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
THURSDAY-----ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
FRIDAY REST

500 ML DISTILLED WATER SOLUTION 10 ML DOSE

71 GRAMS KNO3
11 GRAMS KH2PO4

500 ML DISTILLED WATER SOLUTION 5 ML DOSE

30 GRAMS CSM+B

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
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this is the tank. The plant load is about 20% heavier now.

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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Thanks for the reply. That makes more sense to me now. I thought if I misunderstood, others may have as well. We don't need anymore myths or confusion in this hobby. It seems I spend more time telling people that this or that myth is not true rather than advancing the hobby. Frustrating.

I can take one important concept from this. Rather than assume people want maximal "everything" we need to instead ask "what do YOU want". Not everyone wants crazy growth and high maintenance. I myself am guilty of shoving EI, CO2 injection etc. down others throat. I'll have to be more clear on what the fellow hobbyist expects or wants rather than my own expectations. As I've always said, a "perfect" low tech balanced tank is harder than a high tech tank. Finding that balance seems more difficult than farming plants IMO.
Look at the big picture.
Look at their goal.
Light, CO2 AND..........ferts.

You cannot piece meal this stuff, but many try.

I have no issues recommending different methods, as long as the user is aware of the trade offs and it is the best management approach for THEM, not me. I ain't got a hill of beans to do with it.

As long as folks do that, then they are going to help the new person.
Even then, the new person has their own free will, and many NEED to learn the hard way. I did. But it's not a recommended path




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pezrock View Post
Wow. After hours of reading and trying to come up with the right calculations I decided I will continue with PPS Pro and add additional KNO3 for a few weeks. If I am not happy I will switch to EI and try that. Can anyone run these numbers for me to see if they are all correct. My main concern and the one I am not sure of is the CSM+B. If I do decide to switch I want to be prepared with correct numbers for a 31 to 32 gallon tank.

DRY

SATURDAY----- 50% WATER CHANGE THEN ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
SUNDAY-------- ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
MONDAY-------ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
TUESDAY-------ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
WEDNESDAY--ADD 1.4 GRAMS KNO3 AND .3 GRAMS KH2PO4
THURSDAY-----ADD .3 GRAMS CSM+B
FRIDAY REST

500 ML DISTILLED WATER SOLUTION 10 ML DOSE

71 GRAMS KNO3
11 GRAMS KH2PO4

500 ML DISTILLED WATER SOLUTION 5 ML DOSE

30 GRAMS CSM+B
They are not THAT much different.
Lots of hollering otherwise........but they do both add the SAME ferts, just at different amounts.

One adds a lower much more conservative amount and assumes build up of these ferts is somehow "Bad". There's no evidence that they are over a truly massive range.

Another targets the upper range, the only method that does in fact.

Now if you start low, and slowly add progressively MORE....then you eventually phase into the other method. Likewise, if you start with non limiting ferts, and slowly REDUCE them, now you are at the same point, you add a little LESS/ or MORE depending on the starting point, till you see a negative plant growth response.

Now you have tweaked each method to suit your specific tank.

But.........CO2 and light are larger factors. Much larger. And they both drive uptake in plants for these ferts.

This is one of the best articles all around I've seen.
http://www.bio-web.dk/ole_pedersen/p..._2001_2_22.pdf

Read that and see if you can understand each figure. You do that, it will help more than all the blah blah about Ferts you will read in 5 years.

Generally, if you where to see what amount of food would best sustain you without gaining weight, would you start with just a few rice crackers and then slowly add more and more till you stopped losing weight?

Or would you eat well, then slowly cut things out little by little till you no longer gained weight?

Which method is healthier?
You can answer that on your own.

EI and PPS can both be modified and generally with some experience and CO2/light, should be. Most any method should be.

But you need to start somewhere and carefully watching the tank is a good idea. Ei rules out any deficiencies, this makes the ferts independent of other factors, so you can focus on things like CO2, which you will see over time account for the 95% of most algae and plant issues you will see on line and in person.

You master light and CO2, then ferts and algae and plant issues are very very easy.

So you can simply add more of the solution to get higher concentrations, but I would suggest adding more of the KH2PO4 to the mix, then you can add more/less as you wish.


You have enough light it seems, so Excel could work well. Ditch that drop checker(DC) or at the very least, do not put much faith in it's readings, they are very poor methods to measure CO2, huge error, slow response etc, much better to use a pH meter, measure the KH etc, you can use relative pH drop which works fairly well overall for most. DC's cause more issues than they are worth.

CO2, good cleaning, keep the filter cleaned etc. Bristle nose plecos will clean the glass very well also, shrimp, they will get eaten by the Roselines most likely, if not now, then later.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you. I read the article. It is hard dialing in CO2 and light. CO2 is running on a PH Monitor, so I am at about 30 ppm. The drop checker is kind of a back up for the monitor. The light is LED and I am not understanding the whole LED intensity PAR thing yet. I do know that my ground cover suffers the most. Glosso, Baby tears and Cryptocorne Parva have all suffered and eventually died. Monte Carlo is hanging on by a thread. Any suggestions for something to eat BBA. The Excel and H202 has not worked. Shrimp escape and SAE eat the fish food. Otos won't touch it. Damn so much trial and error!!

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