Plant problem, please advise - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-22-2004, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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Hey everyone,

Seems I am lacking a nutrient in my tank. The symptomes include pin holes in old growth, the leaves then yellow and turns brown. Eventually the older leaves will fall off. This seems to really effect the sunset hygro and red temple....

Stats
Ph6.7
Kh4-5
Gh5
Nitrites & Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrates 10ppm
Phosphates .5-1ppm
Potassium, dosed to about 15ppm
C02 @20-30ppm
3wpg, bulbs less then 6 months old.

I suspected calcium, but with my Kh and Gh numbers I dont think that is the issue, so I think this is a magnesium issue! I dose plantex and flousish everyother day 5ml each time and the subsrate is full of seachem root tabs. Any ideas?


Jason

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 12:59 AM Thread Starter
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:?:

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 01:02 AM
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You shouldn't have any problems! Everything is correct!!! :P

Could it be that it is just natural death of old leaves? Like "pull me out, cut me in half, and put me back into the sand please!"?

Can you post a pic of how that looks like?


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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 01:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasserpest
You shouldn't have any problems! Everything is correct!!! :P

Could it be that it is just natural death of old leaves? Like "pull me out, cut me in half, and put me back into the sand please!"?

Can you post a pic of how that looks like?
Yep, I can posts some picks, but it wont be till tomorrow... :?

It is really wierd and just started happening. After a weeks time I have 15-20 leaves from the above mentioned plants floating in the tank... It is a story book potassium diffientcy, but I have more that enough potassium.....My cryps, dwarf chain sword, lotus, Cabomba are fine and grow like weeds(Cabomba 6-inches in one week). My red temple, hygro,ludwiga all have this issue. I have also noticed the Didiplis Diandra just seemed to stop growing(leaves look fine, just no growth compared to 2 inches a week when I planted it...)....

I dont think it is natural death of leaves... My hygro never had this issue in the past 6-8months this tank has been set up.... I also noticed the hygros stems seem to be more brittle then normal... Forgot to mention I do weekly 50% water changes too...

Ahh the fun of planted tanks...And they say this hobby is relaxing... :roll:

Jason

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 01:24 AM
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Two things.

Can you tell me what you are dosing and how much?

Besides the Plantex and Flourish (everyother day 5ml) and the SeaChem root tabs the substrate.

When was the last time you changed the light bulbs?
Sorry re-read, less than 6 months.

Sean

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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMurphy
Two things.

Can you tell me what you are dosing and how much?
When was the last time you changed the light bulbs?

Sure Sean,

Two bulbs are @7-8months old(the 96w) (older then I though. The above # of 6 months was an estimate, I checked my records),and the 2 55w are 3-4months old...(96s are in rear 55s in front.) I know the 96w are getting up there in age, but assumed I would get 1 year out of them before replacing. :shock:

I dose dry KNO3(for nitrate) to @10ppm, Mono Potassium Phosphate (for phosphate)to .5-1.0ppm, and if necessary Potassium Sulfate to top off my postassium to 15-20ppm usually only every other week as most of the potassium comes from the other two...I have cut back, because I was scared I might be dosing to much postassium.

I dose a combo of plantex CSM+B and flourish every other day 5ml each time.

I also have 2 dozen seachem plant tabs in the substrate which is a mix of sand and flourite.

This is only effecting old growth. New growth is fine and is perfect in color. I did notice some of the new growth on the red temple to be deformed, but only on one stem of the dozen stems I have.


Jason

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 02:25 AM
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Sorry I was editing myself as you were answering.

One of our friends in OZ just had this problem and changing his lights fixed it. I'm still waiting to hear if the other guy that was having the problem fixed it by reducing his K dosing. I guess since your lights aren't that old it might be K overdosing.

I think you might want to recalculate the amount of K you are dosing. If you dose for 10 ppm N you are adding 30 ppm K. If you only make the amount of water you add (50% water change) have a N of 10 ppm then you are adding enough K to make the tank have 15 ppm K, on top of what might be left in the tank from the previous dosing. This isn't including the K in Flourish and included with your P dosing.

Sean

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 02:37 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMurphy
Sorry I was editing myself as you were answering.

One of our friends in OZ just had this problem and changing his lights fixed it. I'm still waiting to hear if the other guy that was having the problem fixed it by reducing his K dosing. I guess since your lights aren't that old it might be K overdosing.

I think you might want to recalculate the amount of K you are dosing. If you dose for 10 ppm N you are adding 30 ppm K. If you only make the amount of water you add (50% water change) have a N of 10 ppm then you are adding enough K to make the tank have 15 ppm K, on top of what might be left in the tank from the previous dosing. This isn't including the K in Flourish and included with your P dosing.
Great points Sean... I have really not dosed any extra K in a few weeks(I provided a baseline above which it appears I was incorrect in my math, but was under the assumption previous to doing some reading that you really could not overdose K which appears now to be incorrect) which was shortly after this problem started. I had read other treads about to much K and thought that might be an issue. I see after reading this this thread and a few others you posted to me on that my K is much higher than I though which could cause this issue I assume.

I usually have to add about 5-7ppm of N to my tank which is around 1/2tbs(little less) each week at the water change which would be 10-14ppm of K I assume, not to mention the K in the phosphate mix which sould be minimal, like an 1/16tbs, but I can see it all adds up....

I was planing on waiting a few more months to replace the 96watt bulbs, but I could do it early and see what happens....

Jason

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 02:47 AM
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Sorry about the posts in the other thread.

K was assumed to not be a problem because it didn't cause algae blooms like N and P do. There were a few agricultural studies done that showed that excess K was taken up by the crops and blocked the absorption of Ca and Mg. In aquatic plants it shows up as a Ca or Mg deficiency or a combination of the two which resembles a K deficiency.

It is plants like Nesea and Hygro that give the earliest signs that something of this type is wrong. At least that is the story I'm sticking to until we find out it is something else like bad lights again.

Sean

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That IS an aquascape, it's titled "The Vacant Lot".
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMurphy
Sorry about the posts in the other thread.

K was assumed to not be a problem because it didn't cause algae blooms like N and P do. There were a few agricultural studies done that showed that excess K was taken up by the crops and blocked the absorption of Ca and Mg. In aquatic plants it shows up as a Ca or Mg deficiency or a combination of the two which resembles a K deficiency.

It is plants like Nesea and Hygro that give the earliest signs that something of this type is wrong. At least that is the story I'm sticking to until we find out it is something else like bad lights again.
Ok, so you think I have a K overdose.... I can deal with that... No more extra K will be added other then the K in KNO3.... Other than that and water changes, I dont know of any other way to get the K down.... I suppose I could lay off the KNO3 too... I just dont want to loose the balance that took 6 months to get and then go back to growing algea....

I think I will also put in an order for some new bulbs, at least the 96watts, the 55w's should be good for another 6 months. Any other words of wisdom...

Jason

P.S. I will still try to get some pics...

120g, Flourite & Sand. DIY Stand and Canopy. CF lighting 3wpg, Pressurized C02, DIY reactor. 2-XP3's, 500watt heater.
Heavily planted
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 05:38 AM
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SC K was not the problem, I think the lights were partly the problem and I started double dosing with the dupla drops and this seemed to get the plants to perk up. In fact the plants are now booming along.
No rotting in the stellata or the Hygro now.
Paul
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 12:06 PM
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I think we got lucky on your tank Paul, though I'm still waiting to hear from Sam about his similar problem and he was going to reduce the K dose to his tank. Mike (Momotaro) was also having a similar problem but I think that turned out to be animal damage not a nutrient deficiency. Jason's lights aren't 'old' yet. It's hard to say what it is but the K is there in excess.

Jason, don't reduce the KNO3 dosing yet, holes in the hygro is a small price to pay to have algae under control. Drop the flourish usage and double the Plantex, you don't need both. Do you mix epsom salts into your Plantex solution (or add epsom salts when you add Plantex, if you dose dry)?

Sean

Aquascape? I'm a crypt farmer.

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 03:42 PM
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wellbiz, although monitoring K+ is problematic, the following two tests have been mentioned as decent. Anyhow, best of luck.

LaMotte Company
3138 Potassium Test Kit - $43.90
http://www.lamotte.com/pages/wawa/in.../potasium.html

Aquarium Landscapes / FishVet.com
Potassium Test Kit EQTK - $30.00
http://www.aquariumlandscapes.net/aq...-Potassium.cfm

PlantView
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 03:51 PM
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Just to put in my two cents about Potassium overdose.

I have diagnosed an overdose of potassium in my tanks. The symptoms in my case appeared first in heavy root feeders like my swords and vals. New leaves were stunted and deformed, leaves would curl and fold back on each other, the vals, formerly reaching the top of my 90 gallon tank with ease, now formed a wad of tangled, brittle leaves that were no higher than a few inch.

Since my water is extremely soft I used to dose the following: NaHCO3, CaCl2, MgSO4, KCl, KNO3, PO4 and Traces.

Since about two weeks I cut down the KCl to zero, and my Ozelot Sword has put out two new leaves since then that look great. No deformities, nice color and speedy growth.

So, in my experience, Potassium overdose (or Calcium/Magnesium deficiency as some suggest) manifests itself not as yellow and brown leaves, but with stunted and deformed growth.

Cheers... mario

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCMurphy
I think you might want to recalculate the amount of K you are dosing. If you dose for 10 ppm N you are adding 30 ppm K.
Sean, can you explain how you got to this assumption? My thoughts were that when dosing KNO3, you add K ppm's at about 2/3 of the NO3 ppm's? For example, dosing to 10 ppm NO3 will add about 6.5 ppm of K, a good supply, but not enough to supply plants optimally?


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