Does My New 7.9 Need To Cycle? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-03-2014, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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Does My New 7.9 Need To Cycle?

When I set up my new 7.9, I used 1.5 liters of water from a cycled tank and a half inch of sand from a cycled tank on top 1.5 inches of plant substrate. Will I need to cycle it?

=LIC= (Large Inverts Club)
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-03-2014, 06:50 PM
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I would, especially if you did not use the old filter/media. That's me though, I wouldn't want to find out the hard way by losing inverts or and nano fish.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-03-2014, 07:21 PM
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There are very few microorganisms in the water.
There is a pretty good population in the top layer of whatever substrate was in a well cycled tank. Under that top layer, there is less water flow, so lower parts of the substrate do not have so many of the beneficial microorganisms.

Here is how you can tell if you need to cycle it:
Add ammonia until the test reads 1 ppm.
Wait overnight and test again. Test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
1) If the ammonia and nitrite are all gone then the tank is cycled for a small livestock population. You could test again using more ammonia (up to 3 ppm).
2) If there is some each ammonia, nitrite and nitrate the cycle is started, but you need to grow the bacteria more before it is good to add livestock (see fishless cycle). It will probably go pretty fast.
3) If the ammonia is pretty close to 1 ppm, and there is little or no NO2 or NO3 then do the full fishless cycle, and it might take pretty close to 3 weeks.

Here is the fishless cycle:
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond, aquaponics or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. Further research over the years has fine tuned the details.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. Minimum KH 5.6 degrees.
pH between 7 and 9, and in the upper 8s is optimum.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 77-86*F is optimum, with high oxygen level.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. A biowheel is an example of high oxygen method, exposing the water to the air in very thin sheets.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.

Sources of information:
The basic method is from a site that is no longer up, and I do not remember the names.
Dr. Timothy Hovanec, several articles about the identification of the organisms in the nitrogen cycle in aquariums (both fresh and salt water) including the set up (water parameters) used to culture these organisms.
Southern Regional Aquaculture Center publication number 454.
Cruising the web and gleaning bits of information over many years from diverse sites including waste management, sewage treatment, aquaponics, aquarium and pond sites, and many others.
My own experiences with raising these bacteria for keeping fresh water fish in aquariums and ponds.
Answering questions in forums about problems people have had doing a fishless or fish-in cycle, and following the corrective measures and results.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-03-2014, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Diana, that was the best answer I could have possibly imagined. I forgot to mention that I put a piece of driftwood from the well cycled tank in as well.

I'll be picking up a heater tomorrow - and possibly some plants. The lfs doesn't get plants in until Thursday so usually what they have early in the week is pretty limited. Should I start my co2 before I add the plants?

My sponge filter is great with aeration. I had the outflow pointing straight up at first and it shot a water geyser 1.5ft out of the tank.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-03-2014, 10:41 PM
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Do not start CO2 before you get the plants.

Add ammonia to keep feeding the bacteria. With no plants go ahead and add ammonia each day, enough to return the reading to 3 ppm once a day.

After you have planted it you can reduce the ammonia to 1 ppm, though you can add it twice a day. You may not even need to. If there are still a lot of bacteria on all the things you brought from the established tank they they will grow quickly and the tank might be cycled in a week.

Did the donor tank have a lot of fish or shrimp?
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-04-2014, 04:51 AM
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i wouldent cycly the tank personalaly i never cycly my tanks it just seem like a wast of time to me i never have a problam ever!
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-04-2014, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phattnug View Post
i wouldent cycly the tank personalaly i never cycly my tanks it just seem like a wast of time to me i never have a problam ever!
You've clearly never had a fish turn black with ammonia burns.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 05-04-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyW8822 View Post
When I set up my new 7.9, I used 1.5 liters of water from a cycled tank and a half inch of sand from a cycled tank on top 1.5 inches of plant substrate. Will I need to cycle it?
Save yourself the headache and cycle The tank. Small changes in a small tank will affect the livestock more. Don't throw your money away and just wait a few short weeks. Well worth the wait.

-Chris
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