refugium or not in sump? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-28-2014, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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refugium or not in sump?

So I am working with sump builder for my new custom sump, and I am unsure if I should go with a refugium or not. What do you guys think? I will be using herbie style drains, and I am thinking refugium is just going to cause me problems and make things more complex than they need to be?

I was thinking if I did away with the refugium, then I could make the other areas large for media and have a nice large return section as well.

Thoughts?

Thanks
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-28-2014, 11:22 PM
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I've got a few questions/ideas about the sump in general:

1. What size sump is this going to be?

2. Why is there a drain section next to the filter socks; why not just have the drain lines go straight into the socks?

3. What do you plan on putting in the wet/dry baffle? I would avoid bio balls or other drip-style media since that baffle is going to be full of water. I'd probably go with filter floss or other coarse mechanical filtration media.

4. Depending on the size of the tank, you might need some more room for bio media. Either getting rid of the drain section or cutting into the fuge space can help accommodate for more media.

5. What do you have planned for putting in the fuge? I'd be worried about plant matter / inverts / etc. getting into the return section and messing with the pump. You could always put some mesh-covered egg crate at the bottom of that gap to avoid something like that, though.

6. There probably won't be too much water movement in the fuge section, so you may need to supplement with a small powerhead or something along those lines.


It's an interesting design, I bet someone else will chime in on this.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrubich View Post
I've got a few questions/ideas about the sump in general:

1. What size sump is this going to be?

2. Why is there a drain section next to the filter socks; why not just have the drain lines go straight into the socks?

3. What do you plan on putting in the wet/dry baffle? I would avoid bio balls or other drip-style media since that baffle is going to be full of water. I'd probably go with filter floss or other coarse mechanical filtration media.

4. Depending on the size of the tank, you might need some more room for bio media. Either getting rid of the drain section or cutting into the fuge space can help accommodate for more media.

5. What do you have planned for putting in the fuge? I'd be worried about plant matter / inverts / etc. getting into the return section and messing with the pump. You could always put some mesh-covered egg crate at the bottom of that gap to avoid something like that, though.

6. There probably won't be too much water movement in the fuge section, so you may need to supplement with a small powerhead or something along those lines.


It's an interesting design, I bet someone else will chime in on this.
1. Sump going to be around 75 Gallons 48x20x18

2. Not sure to be honest, this is what the sump builder suggested and I have seen a lot of sumps done this way online. Seems like wasted space, I would hope someone could tell me as well.

3. I was going to have a drip tray on top with Bio Bale under it or eheim substrat pro, I am open to suggestions.

4. I agree, don't think I have enough bio media

5. I really don't think I want the fuge to be honest, I think it going to be more trouble than it worth, plus I have 3 QT tanks (20L) setup in another area of the house. Don't see the need for it.

6. I agree

The display tank is 180 Gallons 72x24x25.

Thanks for the feedback. This sump is whatever I want I just want to get it right as it expensive, don't want to mess it up.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 12:41 AM
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If you don't personally want a refugium, I see no reason to include one in your sump...
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 12:42 AM Thread Starter
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If you don't personally want a refugium, I see no reason to include one in your sump...
I did at first, but I think it just going to make things more complex than they need to be.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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What do you guys think of this layout instead. Keep in mind baffles are not where they would be as far as height, as I don't know how to do that yet, my skills are limited with the program to draw.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:04 AM
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Call me crazy, but I still don't see how you can get a drip tray to work. For a drip tray / trickle filter to work well, the media needs to be higher than the next baffle in the line.

Side note: the water level in the sump will equilibrate with the return section of the sump, or in your case the return section and poret foam section since there isn't an "over" baffle to the left of the last baffle, essentially making the last two baffles one section with something at the top.

Anyways, if you place the drip tray in line with the first baffle (just under where it reads "poret foam, wet/dry drip tray"), the bio bale will be underwater.
Does that make sense? It's kinda hard to explain in writing, but essentially the water will have to rise to the level of the baffle between the bio media and the last poret foam section (just left of center in the pic), meaning that the water will be just as high in the drip tray section : the water doesn't magically all go to the left of that baffle after the drip tray and then build up and spill over the next baffle without an equal amount of water on the other side.

Side note #2: If you want water to flow properly and not end up with a dead spot on the surface of the water where everything is, make sure the baffles decrease in height going towards the return. That way there is always a net downwards flow of water. In my sump (20L), there is about a 1/2 drop in water level as it travels to the next section. **You may have already planned for that in your drawing, but I can't tell what the measurements are. Either way, I figured I would throw that out there.

^What I would recommend is add a baffle to the left of the very last one (the one that is suspended above the bottom of the tank just before the return section) and make the height slightly smaller than the baffle between the poret foam and bio media. That way you'll only net water loss in the return section rather than the return AND final foam section.


Either way, I think it looks better without the fuge and having a larger return section means you'll probably have less frequent top offs (depending on other factors.... have you thought of getting an ATO?). I'll draw up a quick picture (I'm a bad artist so don't laugh at it haha) for what I'm talking about.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:21 AM
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Here is what I'm talking about (It is by no means to scale, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say):


Now that I think about it, I could see the gap to the right of the filter socks (drain) being nice so that you can keep your drain line underwater all the time to make it a little more quiet. But then again, expect to clean that section out routinely because there will be some stuff that settles down in there.
In extreme cases of filter socks getting clogged, you will run into problems with the water going through the socks (obviously). In that case, plan for that ledge's vertical piece to NOT extend to the top of the sump. That way, any water build-up will just spill over into the the first section rather than over your floor.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrubich View Post
Here is what I'm talking about (It is by no means to scale, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say):


Now that I think about it, I could see the gap to the right of the filter socks (drain) being nice so that you can keep your drain line underwater all the time to make it a little more quiet. But then again, expect to clean that section out routinely because there will be some stuff that settles down in there.
In extreme cases of filter socks getting clogged, you will run into problems with the water going through the socks (obviously). In that case, plan for that ledge's vertical piece to NOT extend to the top of the sump. That way, any water build-up will just spill over into the the first section rather than over your floor.
Thank you for the advise, I get what your saying, and makes sense. The pictures I have posted are very rough, I needed to come up with a basic design, and the place that building it will fix all the problems , and send me updated pictures with very detailed info, height so on of baffles. I hope to have that in the next few days. I passed the info along to them as well about the wet/dry and the drain area. Nextreef dot com is building it for me and I know several of the reef guys in this area, have gone with them. I will post when I get the detailed drawing from them in the next few days.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:30 AM
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Nextreef makes nice products, I'm confident that they will be able to help you the rest of the way. Keep us updated!
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:37 AM
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for point #2 besides being quiet, having the drain underwater is essential for getting the full siphon effect on the main drain line. This looks like fun. I wish I had such a big sump to work with Definitely please keep us posted


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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-29-2014, 02:53 AM
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for point #2 besides being quiet, having the drain underwater is essential for getting the full siphon effect on the main drain line.
Whoops, I completely forgot that the OP is doing a Herbie setup. I was thinking about my [outdated] Durso setup.
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