Possible cure for BBA in most cases! - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 05:47 AM Thread Starter
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Possible cure for BBA in most cases!

I have been battling BBA for many many months almost to the point I felt like just taking the tanks down. But than I said to myself I would be destroying one of natures great experiments! Nothing to lose , only to gain actually.

I am not going to mention what I tried only what seemed to work. I am in agreement with the many that when they just bump up the CO2 they only grew more BBA, in fact it grows all over diffusers because that's what happened to me as well! Does flow have a cause an effect ? Yes but may be the least. Does CO2 by itself claimed by many experts & those that follow agree. No it does not seem at all that its strictly about CO2! CO2 seems to be a trigger but from my experience something else is fueling it. Find out what fuels it & you will slow or hurt it. CO2 still should be steady but does not seem to be needed at extremes below 30ppms. That would be a limit in most cases. I still dose separate Fe an as a test the Fe does now not seem to make it worse, it may only be If PO4 & DOC's get out of hand along with you know, dirty filters & substrates that could use a little work& better Redox!

I still use excel , but I have cut that down to 1/5 the dose every couple days which would really mean 1/6 or 1/8 th the dose. I have been adding peroxide directly to the water in my case 1 cap every few days at night only , in theory bringing more 02 into the system. At some point I may stop the peroxide altogether to test the system more as well as the excel. Some may say that its the excel mostly thats killing bba in my tanks but I tried that & it helped a little but BBA continued to grow regardless.


What I am about to say may be premature an not exact it is just what I am observing in my tanks. I may report back soon an say well its back but I feel at the very worst I will report back an have a very controllable condition without constant trimming an spot dosing excel & peroxide. Its hard to say but when you watch a tank for 8 months every day & know something has gone wrong you can kinda feel the energy that is gone from better days. That being said here it goes.

I started to think that O2 is playing a role in the growth because of poor redox. So on a hunch I decided to put better aeration in both tanks one with fish one without fish. Both had BBA growing constantly , the short spotty kind. The one without fish would gain a HOB filter with its already 2211 Ehiem. In theory I would be getting better gas exchange at the surface interface . My internal CO2 reactor had to be bumped up to adjust for more degassing of CO2 from the HOB filter. The second tank would get no additional filters this tank I had even more trouble with hinting at the primary problem, DOC's! That tank would get an air stone on a timer at night for 5 hours to move more water an bring more O2 to the plants & filter causing better biological activity from my filter letting my tank go alkaline for at least 10 hours a day in the 7.5 or higher range. BBA does not seem to like that. I use to run my reactors a little later now they turn off 1 - 1.5 hours before lights turn off letting the last of the CO2 degas an the tank gets a head start on alkalinity.

Another thing that BBA does not like is clean filters. Some folks may not be cleaning their filters including myself as well as they could. I would not skip cleaning any component at all especially the hoses. I started cleaning my canisters more often & keeping up with regular substrate cleaning at the bottom sucking up a reasonable amount of organics sector by sector even though its a small tank. My tank water looks crystal clear now & the plants & fish look better as well. Not sure how this works on low tech substrates just yet?

I believe EI dosing in some cases gets out of hand forcing you to do more water changes & it is not possible to test & even know if some nutrients are still building up an fueling more negative algae from excess nutrients. I started cutting back on CSM+B as well dosing one time a week. I even only change my water now every other week & the other tank I go sometimes 3 weeks the one without fish & both tanks do not seem to mind!

The last big factor I will mention will be at conflict with some . That's Phosphates! Plants still need it but the 1-3ppm or more that some are running may be too much for your system. Probably light related. I do not run high par tanks so I tried keeping my PO4 between 0.25-0.50 ppms but not crashing. Normally I run 1-2ppms or more . I also notice that more green algae & green spot is growing again which I have not seen in months. A healthy sign. The green spot may also be competing for nutrients with BBA?
Fe seems in my tanks to make BBA grow more as well but I feel its only when the tank is out of balance & in a funk because of poor redox & high DOC's & low O2 levels as well as dirty filters excess nutrients. I do not agree that every one should run out & get phosphate removing media unless its short lived or you may have to figure something else out to keep levels lower. You still need PO4, you just might have a little too much for your tank, thats all I am saying.

Should have posted during prime time. Hope this helps .

Last edited by Hardstuff; 03-20-2014 at 09:43 AM. Reason: paragraph in wrong position
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 02:08 PM
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I think one of the reason BBA is so heavily debated is a combination of misunderstanding and misinformation. Misinformation, many claim that BBA is caused from high light. Yet BBA is a low light algae. It does not like high light. Another is that BBA is caused from polluted water. BBA generally grows in clear moving water bodies. Those are only two. Researching BBA in natural systems from academic sources can yield quite a lot on the nature of this cancer.

Misunderstanding. The experts claim BBA is a CO2 problem. This is absolutely true. However, the experts have never claimed that this is the only factor. Many seem to ignore this important piece of information. The "experts" don't report cures and causes unless they can be reproduced and verified. CO2 happens to be the only way BBA issues have been caused and corrected in a predictable and more important repeatable manner.

If I understand your post you're claiming that DOC plays a role in BBA? I certainly can't say either way. It does appear that this may be the case. To be able to definitively claim this we have to be able to verify it. We can't test for DOC with a kit from Walmart so it's hard to say what the DOC was. Furthermore, DOC is a very general term for dissolved organic carbon. There is a thread about this at APC Organics analysis. A member there is testing water samples with laboratory grade equipment to determine TOC content and the presence of various algae.

If DOC plays a role then why would you reduce water changes? This will increase the problem. To be honest, if your BBA disappears how can you say what the cause was since your control tank has different parameters and both tanks have changing conditions. Try eradicating BBA from one tank using ONE method. Then apply that ONE method to another. Then remove that method and see if BBA reappears. If it does, apply that ONE method and see if it disappears. Then "rinse and repeat".

If DOC is a cause then regular water changes, meticulous maintenance, proper nutrient levels (including CO2), proper water column flow and adequate gas exchange would go a long way at reducing DOC. The addition of activated charcoal will remove a lot of the DOC although mostly the smaller molecules.

Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing you for reporting your observations. I appreciate others reporting what has worked or not and how they came to the conclusions. It's how we learn and discover, or at least I do.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 04:43 PM
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I can't yet say it is cured as that will take time to see, but I will say it is gone.
Having read the following thread (all 27 pages)
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...t=20172&page=9
and did as many recommended as far as dosing with Excel and it worked. At least so far.
I had little luck with HP even when direct dosing and wanted to try Excel before trying the combination of the two in the "one-two punch method"
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=203684
I was hoping to preserve my vals (I didn't) and my fish (lost one Tetra) so I went with only a double "new tank" dose (as opposed to triple) followed the next day by a double "maintenance" dose and then the next day with a 70% WC. That was followed with normal dosing as per instructions. I also added a temporary power head to ensure the Excel found its way all throughout.
Over a week the BBA turned purple and then white and within another week it is totally gone. I pruned some of it out of the tank as those leaves were damaged anyway but left lots for the Excel to take care of. I did turn up my CO2 for a few days but with the Excel & the CO2 the fish were getting stressed so I went back to normal CO2 levels within 3 days. I plan to continue normal dosing with Excel and hopefully BBA won't come back.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, Zorfox you cannot buy a DOC'S test kit anywhere. Most of what you say is correct, but I know my tanks . I know they have turned the corner. An yes experiment rinse & retry. That will be easy. The amount of attention I am giving my small pressurized tanks probably will not continue in the long run. I just have been on a quest to find a resolution to this & I never for a minute believed that CO2 was strictly the cause. It seems to be an inducer but the fuel source needs to be found for it to go away or not do well. Adding O2 at night seems to be the biggest solution to date. Aeration should improve redox & help the beneficial bacteria do its job. People with sumps in theory will have a huge heads up on this provided the sump is kept in clean & a healthy condition.

That being said its not just that simple as I stated earlier. If some things are out of balance even what I am saying may not work. Example, not a high enough biomass, not enough good healthy algae, proper lighting, yes steady CO2 not bouncing around during the photoperiod. Nutrient crashing will cause poor plant growth. EI may have issues for some especially if untestable nutrients build up.

I also did not say I was cutting back on W/C either. As time went by I went to every 2 weeks for a water change long after BBA showed . I just said that running my tanks with the kind of lighting I use with lower amounts of nutrients dosed each week I change my water less. For me every 2 weeks in one tank works & 3 weeks in the one without fish. Regarding Does not make sense with less water changes because of more of a build up up DOC's well, not if you are concentrating on better redox an aeration at night. That's what I have been concentrating on mostly & keeping a close eye on PO4 not to let it crash but keep it low ( 0.25-0.75ppms) seems to be working in all my tanks even low tech dirted one's.

Regarding how it grows in nature. Well I will not try an answer that only thing is what we are doing is really not that natural & actually I do not think we fully understand nature anyway. We have a general idea what is happening on how things work but sometimes you have to have an open mind an say well, maybe there is something that we are missing & need to step back take another look an see if something is going on that we do not understand! It would be arrogant at this point to say this is exactly what is going on out there. Science has been corrected many times over in some cases. Yes I know about the pure water that it loves in nature, but our tanks are different, there will always be something different. Let me see, we have Filters to name something off the top of my head.

I dose very low amounts as stated of excel. It never stopped my bba. Do I think its totally gone ? No I am sure the spores are waiting & yes if you want to pick my tank apart I am sure you could find some trying to stay alive!

But thanks folks, its nice to get some feed back, I really did not want to start a big long thread on this, just to report what I feel will help many, & what has helped my tanks. I know my tanks , I could not stop this stuff from steadily growing now it is fading back so I thought I would let some people know.

Last edited by Hardstuff; 03-20-2014 at 07:13 PM. Reason: word change
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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Regarding filter cleaning

I forgot to mention I changed out my filter sponges on my Fluval on the tank with fish. I also plan on totally changing out the bio media or partly in the near future as well. I found that it did not matter how I cleaned the sponges there was still always organics that could be seen in the cleaning bucket. So I decided to buy new one's. I could not get them totally clean. They have been running for 3-4 weeks at this point.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 07:45 PM
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Hardstuff, if you limit plants.............with nutrients, then one nutrient becomes more limiting than another, so if you have poor CO2..............and you limit say Fe or PO4, both of which have a long history of correlation with BBA............


This hobby is much simpler than most seem to think or imply.
It's about growing the plants well, so the focus should be there.
If you have algae, then you are not focused on the plants enough.
It really is that simple.







Regards,
Tom Barr

Last edited by plantbrain; 03-20-2014 at 08:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardstuff View Post
I just have been on a quest to find a resolution to this & I never for a minute believed that CO2 was strictly the cause. It seems to be an inducer but the fuel source needs to be found for it to go away or not do well. Adding O2 at night seems to be the biggest solution to date. Aeration should improve redox & help the beneficial bacteria do its job. People with sumps in theory will have a huge heads up on this provided the sump is kept in clean & a healthy condition.
Likely true, but little evidence has been shown thus far.
Degassing rates with canister filter are much different and lower ppm of O2 in the tank is common.

We have correlation, but it is O2, or is it degassing and stability of the CO2?
You cannot add O2 without stabilizing CO2 degassing rates also.

Well, unless you add O2 gas.........but that did nothing for algae overall.


Quote:
EI may have issues for some especially if untestable nutrients build up.
EI will minimize/eliminate any growth limitations and provide large frequent water changes. This also helps with algae issues.

If anything, it's a much better tool than any other method of dosing if you are testing things like light and CO2. Which as anyone worth their salt is aware of, are the two largest driving factors for growth and thus issues with management.

EI removes dependencies, it does not add to them.

If you have a CO2 issue, it could be from degassing differences, it could be due to lower O2, current etc, not simply add more/less CO2 gas.

Quote:
Yes I know about the pure water that it loves in nature, but our tanks are different, there will always be something different.
True.

Quote:
I dose very low amounts as stated of excel. It never stopped my bba. Do I think its totally gone ? No I am sure the spores are waiting & yes if you want to pick my tank apart I am sure you could find some trying to stay alive!
If you use CO2 gas, then do not use Excel.
If you do not use CO2, then you can use Excel.
I think it does not help adding a general biocide to a CO2 enriched tank.
Better to let the bacteria and plants do their thing with the CO2.

If you do not add any CO2, then Excel is a decent idea. Plants will adapt better to a single source of carbon than both I think.

Quote:
But thanks folks, its nice to get some feed back, I really did not want to start a big long thread on this, just to report what I feel will help many, & what has helped my tanks. I know my tanks , I could not stop this stuff from steadily growing now it is fading back so I thought I would let some people know.
Well, PMDD reported this same thing about 20 years ago, but the conclusion as to why was incorrect.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/

I falsified the hypothesis, then went after other nutrients.
I really do not fiddle and play with nutrients much any more.

I just focus on good filtration, current, CO2 and light.
Water changes, gardening etc.

If you cannot grow plants without a lot of algae issues without limiting ferts, then you have a lot of room to improve your horticultural skills. Maybe you do not want to do that, but I have a feeling folks that say that are lying

Light/CO2 are where it's at.

http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-ab...and-light.aspx

Note, Ole and Troels used a non limiting fert routine to make sure there were no dependencies with ferts for the test.

It's a good article and focuses on what most hobbyists need to focus on more: plant growth, not algae growth.

Back in the 1990's, it took me 3 years to figure out BBA, but not an issue since. Amano said it took him 10 years.

I do not think I would have lasted that long.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:27 PM
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FInding a cure for BBA is like finding a cure for the common cold
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardstuff View Post
But thanks folks, its nice to get some feed back, I really did not want to start a big long thread on this, just to report what I feel will help many, & what has helped my tanks. I know my tanks , I could not stop this stuff from steadily growing now it is fading back so I thought I would let some people know.
I hope you keep it up! As I said Iím not flaming you just making my own points. Debating is totally different than arguing. I learn quite a lot from debates. NEVER mistake my comments as being argumentative. I will also never discount experiences other hobbyists have had. For example, if one hobbyist said adding a tablespoon of orange juice once a week cleared their BBA I would be very skeptical. Yet, if a few hundred kept reporting the same event, wellÖ. Never let others influence what you see and experience. On the flip side you also have to be open to what the majority have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardstuff View Post
Adding O2 at night seems to be the biggest solution to date. Aeration should improve redox & help the beneficial bacteria do its job. People with sumps in theory will have a huge heads up on this provided the sump is kept in clean & a healthy condition.
I agree. Yet why does improving redox help? Increased BB activity reducing organics? So why would water changes or AC be any different? Eliminate the organics and eliminate the problem. Hence water changes and good tank maintenance if indeed DOC plays role. Yes, it may very well be a catalyst.

I think it important to eliminate variables when looking for a cause to any problem. Nutrients being a good example. Since you lowered PO4 and Fe you have an algae problem. We know this to be the case. This is predictable and preventable if PO4 and other nutrients remain non limiting. However, we don't have evidence that supports non limiting nutrients being a cause of algae. It would seem reasonable to eliminate fertilizer additions from the equation completely by providing a given range known to work. Then concentrate on other variables such as DOC, CO2 or orange juice lol.

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Originally Posted by Hardstuff View Post
Regarding how it grows in nature. Well I will not try an answer that only thing is what we are doing is really not that natural & actually I do not think we fully understand nature anyway.
I completely agree! A natural environment and an aquarium are different. However, we can learn a great deal from nature. We most likely will never have complete control over this. That's one of the reasons I like this hobby so much. It can NEVER be mastered.

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Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
This hobby is much simpler than most seem to think or imply.
It's about growing the plants well, so the focus should be there.
If you have algae, then you are not focused on the plants enough.
It really is that simple.
This is very true. If we want algae free tanks and healthy plants this should be the focus. I do however think that this methodology prevents discovery of what is actually causing BBA or anything else for that matter. Curiosity plays a role in this hobby for many people. Some folks like to know how things tick. I've always been one of those. Itís not enough to have a perfect burger by following a recipe. Instead why does it taste so darn good? Can I improve it? Thatís the beauty of this hobby. We'll never have all the answers.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 09:46 PM
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I think I've done enough discovery, that was not my goal, nor most when they started out in this hobby, the goal was and this is true for 99% of the hobbyists, (thus I can certainly make a broad generalization), to garden aquatic plants nicely.

No one gets into this hobby to find all the causes for algae. Getting side track is fun at times, but it certainly dissuades hobbyists from their original goal, intent and primary focus.

If you have a pestering BBA issue, you have plant growth/horticulture issues, not algae issues. There's something to learn from that, not to get side tracked. Stay focused on the problem and stop looking for silver bullets, easy ways out. Learn to use CO2 well, learn to have good O2, current, less light etc, there's plenty of good management advice on the web that most do not listen to, but are willing to play every possible nutrocentric card there is.

Some folks just have to learn that the old myths are just that no matter what other folks tell them. They have to prove it to themselves. That's fine, but it often drags a bunch of other folks and "me too's" into the fray and waste their time and they think there's something to this even though the issues have been beaten to death 101 times in every language. This same old manure is repeated and no know one learn beans and little is done to improve their gardening skills.

So yes, you learn, but not what you wanted or your original goal.




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-20-2014, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I think I've done enough discovery, that was not my goal, nor most when they started out in this hobby, the goal was and this is true for 99% of the hobbyists, (thus I can certainly make a broad generalization), to garden aquatic plants nicely.

No one gets into this hobby to find all the causes for algae. Getting side track is fun at times, but it certainly dissuades hobbyists from their original goal, intent and primary focus.
Point taken and I actually agree with your advice. Concentrating on horticulture usually abates algae issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Stay focused on the problem and stop looking for silver bullets, easy ways out.
The search for silver bullets is one of the primary reasons I cannot resist entering into these debates. Snake oils and theories are endless in this hobby. BBA is the one area where there seems to be more dissension and myths than any other. I'm sure after I have as much time as you under my belt as you I will tire with the repetition. In many aspects that's already the case. I suppose firing at these types of debates can lead to more myths and folklore. Yet I do try my best to put some to rest and prevent others from starting. Although in the time I've been contributing to these forums it seems to be a losing battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
This same old manure is repeated and no know one learn beans and little is done to improve their gardening skills.

So yes, you learn, but not what you wanted or your original goal.
Well said. I honestly can't argue this point at all lol
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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I do not have trouble growing most plants. I do not want to limit CO2. I am not trying to cut ferts to a minimum. I am back dosing Fe again. My tanks are looking like they were 1 year go before I discovered red alga. The water is crystal clear & I have several species growing out of control. My tanks are not in bad shape , probably better than most. The thing is I do not have the budget to run high light tanks now nor do I wish to. These days I feel like practicing water conservation . I am not against high light pressurized systems. I just do not want water changes every week. I did that for over a year an in the end I still got some BBA. Why Tom? O I know not enough CO2. Sorry I do not agree. Well maybe partially.
CO2 needs to be steady , we all know this but I will not go into the same old story about how I cranked up the CO2 & pushed it day after day staring at the tank hour after hour checking levels . Ok how did I really know I had enough. NO, I did not post to defend. Just to report about tanks with an issue that improved. Also my tanks were never really that bad. Some posts I have seen looked extremely bad compared to my tanks. I never had the stuff growing all over everything , just here & there. But that bothered me enough when I checked my nutrient levels & kept them up month after month & cranking the CO2 , even improving enrichment which seemed to help, improved flow but the BBA would not go away even with pure 50% reset r/o water. I started to think it had to be the water , something in the mix. Sometimes my CO2 would be off my target range but I got better at it. I listened to Tom & really targeted the CO2. . I know some on this forum that blame soft water as well. I do not totally agree myself.

As stated , I am not saying CO2 does not factor into the puzzle but thats not what feeds the stuff IMO. Sorry folks if you cannot except that but there are other things going on. Example, why would BBA grow on the highest concentration of CO2? Like growing on hard object delivering CO2 in the tank???? If higher levels of CO2 causes BBA to slow in growth than why does it grow all over the very thing you say keeps it from growing?????? For that reason I do not run diffusers anymore. That was an atomiser not a regular diffuser. I only run reactors now even on small tanks.

IMO medium light tanks do not need the levels of nutrients that high light tanks have so why would it be a bad idea to reduce levels in less light tanks??? Reduce does not mean limit in my book. Limit means crash or near zero IMO. Does nature contain 10-20ppms of nitrate??? Does nature commonly contain 2-5ppms or more of PO4???

I do not agree that CO2 is the only factor. I do agree that if the levels bounce around & are too low during the photo period that could induce BBA. I also believe & I did retain this knowledge from Tom , that even in low tech tanks water change water should be degassed which I do & thus far have not had issues in that format. So I am meeting you half way. However I stand by observation & improving 02 levels has helped my systems more than anything else besides cleaning the filters more & replacing dirty sponges collecting Organic compounds. Which compound? ( hold on let me get my chem book out! ( I see a citation coming.) I also do not agree about using excel while dosing CO2. My tanks were growing like weeds & the water looked extremely clean & clear while doing that. Can some folks dose no excel an have similar results? I am sure they can but they probably run higher par levels with much better fixtures than I run. For the low quality equipment that I run , I have some pretty nice tanks. I enjoy my tanks & a am not an equipment snob as well. I try an get away with less.

If my tanks clear out the BBA & I did what I said I did , nothing special for the CO2 levels than I have been for the last 6-8 months than what do you think? Did I get lucky , even (Tom) says luck does not factor into it???
I will continue to enjoy learning about red algae & I am planning on again enjoying my tanks . With all do respect I agree with a fair amount said about what induces BBA, but I strongly feel that CO2 alone is not the only factor. I believe it induces it if levels get too low or fluctuates too much but if its fuel source is taken away than it will be much less of a problem. But Hay, that statement will be taken wrong unless I continue to explain which I will not. There probably are a dozen other things that could factor in as well like say bio mass in the tank, par, nutrients, CO2, O2 , water quality , filtration, surface agitation, acidification, bacteria, types of plants. The list is endless, like Tom says focus on growing plants & that will get rid of algae. Maybe I want some. If grown correctly , some algae is helpful & natural. I am not into tanks with absolute control anyway , they become sterile looking flower gardens anyway.
As stated before, science stands still when the many follow the given excepted current science of things until one day a discovery is observed & suddenly it changes everything!
If I report back a month later & still degas my tanks at night & continue to have little to no new BBA what would you say than? I got lucky?
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 07:38 AM
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If you are interested in BBA and DOC then read through this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...-analysis.html, a table of results starts on page 7 if you'd rather skip ahead to the data.

We are collecting data on it and hopefully one day will finish the experiment and figure out what the relationship is.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Ok I forgot to mention something in my last post. It may or may not have anything to do with BBA but I will report it anyway. About the time I started noticing BBA but not really really sure about the timing,I installed new R/O filters that at the time I never thought about checking PO4 levels after changing filters. I noticed my PO4 levels were at 4-5ppms steady & even with 2 water changes a week & zero PO4 dosing I could not figure out where this stuff was coming from. I had 2 shrimp die at the same time so I contributed the levels to that.
Well it turned out one day I tested the R/o & the water was coming out of the system at 4-5 ppm level. So that answered that question! I called the company but they said they were not aware of the issue but said they have read about some carbons admitting PO4 more than others . Long story short I went 2 months like that than they cleared up. Now I flush them better before use & I have not noticed the spike since. There is however even after a good rinse that the PO4 will still stay at 2ppms for a week or 2 even now when new.

Did this not help my situation IMO It did not. But I will never know for sure, it would be hard to repeat.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-21-2014, 07:58 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Zapins

I will read that. I think I followed that for awhile. I wanted to see how it turned out. I use to work for a lab myself. For me it was frustrating getting the ok for samples. There was always something political going on. Questions like what do you want them for??? I was not in position to use the auto autoanalyzer. It was frustrating. But back then I wanted to use it for different kinds of samples.

About this thread why is it taking so long to get results??? I believe the thread has been going on for awhile. Somebody has access to the equipment, right?
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