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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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probably deficiencies....a tad pic heavy

I converted my tank to dirt probably 6 months ago. For the first 4 months all the plants seemed to flourish. Now many of my plants aren't doing so well. The ones I am most concerned about are the aponogeton, cabomba and myrio filigree. Not sure maybe the dirt lost its nutrients...if thats possible? And it should be noted I tried Excel for a month or so dosing 5ml every other day - the recommended dose.

The aponogeton used to be massive!! too many leaves to count. Now there are only two plus two small leaves that seem like they haven't grown at all in weeks. They seem like they are slightly yellowing and kinda decaying almost.

The cabomba and myrio filigree both have the bottom half of their stems completely void of leaves. Not sure what that could mean.

Another thing to note is the green temple. Kinda hard to tell in the picture but some of the leaves have turned a little yellow.

I understand yellowing leaves could be nitrogen, iron, or a phosphate deficiency. Not sure if one of those are my problem or something different altogether. I don't know I'm at my wits end and any input as to what my problem is and how to fix it is extremely appreciated.

Oh, and I posted pics of all the plants. Not all seem to have something wrong but I figured I'd include them in case they helped identify what is wrong.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 05:01 AM
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I've read that holes in leaves are a sign of a manganese deficiency. Pulled this chart from the internet, it may give some hints.



Also, that algae looks like a form or Rhizocolonium. The solution I had to that particular algae was to begin dosing nitrates (KNO3), and it went away. That's just my experience, and none of my plants were the same species as yours.

People are too often merely stating an assumed truth from flawed observation.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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A full tank shot would be useful here. An aquarium is very close to a flower pot as far as the plants are concerned.
Some nutrients will come from the fish food(s) and reading the label on them shows that. And some nutrients will
come from the fish waste. So it's not AS bad as a flower pot about not having the nutrients replaced, but they do get
used up. So before anything else can be done we need a list of what you have for tank size/lights(hopefully be specific)
and fish kind/size. I do see what CAN be Pleco damage but not sure about it.
Dosing twice the recommended dose level of Excel every other day is not the same as the correct dose every day.I use
just a slight bit over what they recommend and it seems to help in my tank. They say 5ml for a 6og tank and I use it
in a ten g tank just a bit past the 1ml mark on a dropper.
Damaged plant parts do not "grow back" but you can trim off the bad parts after the new good growth has taken over.
The plant still gets light from parts of damaged leaves so allow them to stay till lots of new growth exist.
A leaf that has turned completely yellow is an exception to this. Like on the Camoba new growth will come both at
the top and bottom likely and the old stem will look bad but don't remove it till the new ones total at least 3/4 of
the size of the old one or you will stunt the growth of the new. I have some Rotala like that in my tank. They got hurt
when planting so the bottom rotted off. I replanted them but the part that was left was short so they have been
growing, but very slowly for lack of leaves to gather light from.
Liquid ferts can be expensive for the larger tanks say over a 29g so either DIY or premixed dry is much cheaper.
Another option is the mix it yourself package found at the bottom of this. It cost a bit to start up, but then it's
cheap from there on out. I got my components from the flea Bay so I could get smaller quantities as I just have
two ten g tanks. Actually it was a bit dumb cause I spent more total than the "kit" cost on the second link.
By kit I mean the Micro Macro+ package before you added their shipping cost.
But do the list first to identify the problem.
On this one it is listed as "EI liquid ferts" and sounds like the easiest one to use. But unless you plan on buying most
of the other equipment on this site you will need to find out what is a very reduced dose for it cause full doses produce
fast plant growth and almost daily attention needs.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...393&highlight=
Look on this one for the "Macro Micro nutrient mix".
http://aquariumfertilizer.com/index....ditU=1&Regit=2
Same as above for reducing the doses or lots more maintenance amounts/equipment cost.

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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thanks so much for your help. Based on that diagram it looks like my plants may show signs of all those deficiencies. The tank is a 55 with dirt, about 15 neons fed moderate daily with just whatever flakes I have laying around, and its got a 60 watt full spectrum led light. CO2 is just basic DIY and probably pretty low.

I think I'm going to try mix my own fertilizer and use that. I looked at the link posted - should I do the complete macro and micro? Or should I try to make my own based more on the specific deficiencies of the tank? I want a fert that will cover pretty much all deficiencies known. I don't know which ones to buy....I'm not a chemist....not yet anyways. I don't know which would be most beneficial - calcium chloride vs. calcium sulfate or nitrate for example. I would be more than happy to mix my own, I just don't know which ones to buy!
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 01:08 AM
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That is why it has a package type. On the second link the one called "Macro Micro nutrient mix" is one that has all the types that are normally used in one package.
On the first one they give it to you in two bottles which you mix water with and then dose the water mixed with the ferts
just like any liquid fert, but that one has the same mixture of all the nutrient types normally used.
Either of these have all the nutrients people use for plants in one kit that you get. When you buy liquid fertilizers from
a store like Petco and like the brand Flourish by Seachem, they sell you the individual nutrients in separate bottles so
you need to buy several kinds to get them all and it's watered down amounts of those nutrients so you are paying for
the water.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 02:32 AM Thread Starter
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I was looking at the micro macro complete and I was a little confused. It has potassium nitrate and potassium sulfate. Why do I need two different compounds with potassium in them? Also, it did not appear to have any calcium or phosphorus compounds. Should I add those to the mix? Also, in the Plantex CSM+B, it contains 55% EDTA. I recognized all other aspects of the CSM+B except this one. I couldn't find much information about its use in an aquarium. Any insight?
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 04:09 AM
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KH2PO4 is one of the three main ingredients of the Macro. It is Potassium Phosphate.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=60060
Potassium is the most used nutrient by plants and the K part is this Potassium. You actually have three nutrients that part of
each are Potassium.
I found it accidentally so anyone might have trouble learning where you get what from so...
I will give you a link directly to it, but if you go to the top Thread on the Fert section of the forum and clic on it
they give three options. Then clic on Dosing regimes and look at every size tank list they all show a GH booster as being
one of the ingredients. That is where the calcium is. If you look at the ingredients for Tom Barr's GH booster you
will see calcium sulfate (also on that fert list sold separately if you want) so here is that link.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=21944
But those suggested doses are for high light tanks/w CO2, so if you do get any dry ferts ask more questions about
suggestions on doses for your tank and include the size and type/amount of light.
All this was very confusing to me the first couple of weeks I started learning it. You are asking good questions that
make sense.
I am going to put that EDTA stuff in the category of "if the people here are not warning you about it...then I really
don't want to know what it is."

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 07:50 AM
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I don't know how I miss these posts. I wish there was just a nice central location on TPT (a deficiency forum) where people could post their problems instead of posting them in different forum categories.

Anyway, unfortunately I have to disagree with you (on the nutrient deficiency part) this time Raymond. I don't see signs of a deficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clincoln9 View Post
And it should be noted I tried Excel for a month or so dosing 5ml every other day - the recommended dose.
I think there are a few things going on here. First, the aponogetons in the tank are dying because of the excel dosing. For the life of me I just don't understand why SeaChem doesn't put on the label not to use excel with aponogetons or vals (and one or two other plants). Excel is toxic to plants from both of these groups and when dosed plants will stop growing, melt, or become damaged from using it. Snails and other creatures will then start gnawing on the damaged leaves as they are in your photos.

The unfortunate species effects of excel can be seen if you look at the difference between the aponogetons and the rotalas and the amazon sword plant. Neither of those show damaged growth and look comparatively healthy (the mottled spots on the sword are normal submersed coloration by the way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by clincoln9 View Post
I understand yellowing leaves could be nitrogen, iron, or a phosphate deficiency. Not sure if one of those are my problem or something different altogether. I don't know I'm at my wits end and any input as to what my problem is and how to fix it is extremely appreciated.
While this is true, the location and pattern of the yellowing makes all the difference in the world. For example, the yellowing seen in nitrogen deficiency starts in the old leaves only, and usually starts at the tip of the leaf, then progresses back towards the stem. Shortly after the chlorosis starts (yellowing), then necrosis (death) of the leaf tissue starts, following in the same tip to stem pattern. When the deficiency becomes severe new leaves grow out progressively smaller until the growing bud stops growing altogether. Iron deficiency shows up in new growth only. Leaves are normal size, but are yellow or more usually paper white. Phosphate deficiency looks like nitrogen deficiency, except you see the chlorosis then necrosis starting from the edges of old leaves towards the midrib while new growth does not grow progressively smaller (stays normal size until the plant stops growing entirely). Each deficiency has a unique pattern, timing, and location of damage. Figuring out what is going on in any given tank is a nuanced affair to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clincoln9 View Post
Based on that diagram it looks like my plants may show signs of all those deficiencies.
As a general rule of thumb, plants cannot show more than one deficiency at a time. This is because plant growth depends on the limiting nutrient. In other words, plants can only grow as fast as the lowest nutrient supplied. This means if you run out of a nutrient in the water then the plants develop deficiency signs of that nutrient and eventually stop growing completely. They cannot continue to grow and develop other deficiencies because the lack of the first nutrient to run out prevents them from growing and running out of another nutrient.

This is not the case with toxicities. You can have multiple toxicities occurring at the same time. They just damage plants in a more random pattern (usually affects old and new growth equally). You can also have a deficiency and toxicity (or more than one toxicity) at the same time, which can complicate the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clincoln9 View Post
Another thing to note is the green temple. Kinda hard to tell in the picture but some of the leaves have turned a little yellow.
I can't really tell from the picture you took of the hygro (green temple) because the highlights are blown and the colors are washed out, but older leaves that die may or may not be a sign of a deficiency. Leaves do have a finite lifespan and tend to turn yellow and die when they get too old so that is a possibility.

Adding to the big picture, you are using soil, which makes most deficiencies fairly hard to develop once you have passed the initial break in period (before the soil has settled in and matured and before the plant roots have grown properly). I'd bet the hygros don't have a deficiency, probably just old leaves, though the myrio and the cabomba also losing their old leaves is interesting and something you should probably keep an eye on. Perhaps it is related to the excel dosing since they have a lot more surface area on their fine leaves with which to absorb excel?

Generally when looking for nutrient deficiencies you must see most of the plant species doing the same thing in the tank at the same time. If you see one funny looking stem or leaf it is unlikely to be a sign of anything, but if you see all plants losing older leaves tip to stem you can probably assume its nitrogen deficiency, etc. The key is seeing many different stems (preferably many different species) acting the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S.
I do see what CAN be Pleco damage but not sure about it.
I agree with Raymond on the mechanical damage part. Especially looking at the Lilly pictures. I'm not convinced it is pleco damage per se, since pleco damage tends to be more extensive and is usually located in the middle of the leaf, just to the sides of the main leaf vein. I was thinking more along the lines of snail damage, but I'm fairly certain that it is mechanical damage not deficiency. The only hole-in-the leaf deficiencies out there are manganese as the diagram above shows and potassium. It isn't potassium deficiency because you'd see a chlorotic margin around the holes as they progress outwards, and it isn't manganese deficiency because you'd see the same thing, and you'd see leaf tissue die and stay in place rather than clean cut holes simply appearing. Also, manganese deficiency is virtually impossible to get in an aquarium. Even in lab conditions it is difficult to remove enough manganese to actually cause a deficiency. It is one of the least needed nutrients, and so even a tiny spec of it in an entire tank will be more than enough. [/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S.
Dosing twice the recommended dose level of Excel every other day is not the same as the correct dose every day.
Also very true. Excel has a very short half life. Meaning it will decay quickly in the tank (within 7-8 hours 50% is gone, within 24 hours it is virtually undetectable). So doubling up the dose every other day does you no good. You cannot build up a reserve supply to last you into the second day and you increase the concentration of it in the tank. Now, usually doubling the concentration isn't too much of an issue but with sensitive plants like the aponogetons you wouldn't want to do that (or dose excel at all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by clincoln9 View Post
Not sure maybe the dirt lost its nutrients...if thats possible?
It is possible for soil to lose certain nutrients with time, but usually this takes 3-6 years depending on how much light/CO2/fast growing plants you have. In your tank I'd estimate you should get at least 4-5 years of use out of it before you start seeing deficiencies, and even then it will probably be one of the macro nutrients N, P or K. Most likely K, since that nutrient is the most soluble of the lot and tends to get leached out of the soil faster than the others.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Summary:
  • Why don't we have a deficiency forum?
  • Excel kills aponogetons and vals
  • The location, and pattern of damage determines the nutrient deficiency
  • No more than 1 deficiency at a time
  • Toxicities depend on the concentration of the toxin
  • Soil depletes very slowly
  • You don't need to dose nutrients at this point in time
  • And finally: Why don't we have a deficiency forum?
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 08:54 AM
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In my tank I was dosing only flourish Comprehensive and Excel at one time and the plants were growing so slow that
BGA took over. I removed the BGA and bought dry ferts for the Macros and just used the Flourish C. for the Micros
and the plants started growing well enough to keep out the BGA and most other algae.
But the plants doing very well and looking much more healthy is why I have suggested what I did.
The tank/plants don't really look bad but rather thin in each plant and collectively as in not enough of.
There are no ferts listed as being used at this time in there. A small amount of a good complete fert will give the plants some ferts in
the water column to use as well as in the sub.
I was aware about the Vals but not the Aspongens not liking the Excel.
So Zapins can you list all of the plants you know which would not work/w Excel ? Because I'd like to know also.

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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
There are no ferts listed as being used at this time in there. A small amount of a good complete fert will give the plants some ferts in the water column to use as well as in the sub.
In his initial description post he mentions that he has a 6 month old soil substrate which should contain the nutrients the plants need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
I was aware about the Vals but not the Aspongens not liking the Excel. So Zapins can you list all of the plants you know which would not work/w Excel ? Because I'd like to know also.
I do not have a complete list, but from what I've read it is basically all vals, all apos, and anacharis. Subwassertang (pellia), riccia, and some mosses if you overdose excel.

I haven't tried all of the plants mentioned in these threads with excel so I cannot personally attest to every claim.

Here is a thread that talks about plants which do not do well in excel dosed tanks:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=189145

Another thread of plants:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...&postcount=373
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
I don't know how I miss these posts. I wish there was just a nice central location on TPT (a deficiency forum) where people could post their problems instead of posting them in different forum categories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
  • And finally: Why don't we have a deficiency forum?
We do have the Fertilizers and Water Parameters sub-forum. That would be the appropriate place for this thread. Unlike APC the mods here are not so compulsive about moving threads.

New members tend to post everything on the General forum. While nutrient deficiency is an important part of this hobby, I don't know that another forum is the answer.

You knowledge is a welcome addition to TPT.
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 03:09 PM
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Zapins that link you gave cleared up something for me. Had a crypt in one of my tens and changed the sub. but the plant then melted.
Was doing all right but had just been moved to my tank about a month before I did the sub change.
I'm sure that two moves in a month and a half had just as much to do/w it as that tank gets Excel at 1ml per day(ten g tank).

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
Excel has a very short half life. Meaning it will decay quickly in the tank (within 7-8 hours 50% is gone, within 24 hours it is virtually undetectable). So doubling up the dose every other day does you no good. You cannot build up a reserve supply to last you into the second day and you increase the concentration of it in the tank.
Given this, I never understood why the Excel directions recommend 5x the normal amount for initial use or after a "major water change". Any ideas?

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 07:56 PM
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We do have the Fertilizers and Water Parameters sub-forum. That would be the appropriate place for this thread.
See that is the thing though. We have forums for aquascaping, fertilizing, substrate, not to mention for each club out there but none for deficiencies. Heck we even have one for photography with a grand total of 660 total posts ever.

Deficiencies are quite common. Everyone has a deficiency or a toxicity at some point in their time keeping aquatic plants, I usually see a couple dozen a week on TPT. The larger volume of deficiency/toxicity posts on TPT than on other forums is actually one of the main reasons I started posting frequently on this forum.

Deficiencies do not fully fall under the other categories. The 'Fertilizers and Water Parameters' forum seems the current best option, but deficiency posts aren't really the same as posts about how to dose, or the methods of dosing (EI, PPS, soil, etc), or questions about how to set up filters and CO2 tanks. It is like saying all the 'Substrate' forum posts should fall into the 'Fertilizers and Water Parameters' forum because substrates have nutrients in them so it is the same category. Or that the 'Fish' and 'Shrimp & Other Invertebrates' forums should be one forum because they both deal with tank fauna rather than plants.

If we had one forum where deficiency posts could all be organized together forum members would greatly benefit. Members could page through other people's questions easily and find similar pictures and threads which would help them learn and figure out what they have, rather than trying to hunt down each post in several forums or rely on 16- color bit drawings (like the one above).

Perhaps a subforum under the Fertilizer forum heading would be a better answer than an entirely new forum, but I think based on the the frequency that deficiencies/toxicities occur it makes sense to have a central location where all new posts can be organized. After all you've probably seen how difficult it is to find organized reliable information on deficiencies out on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey
Given this, I never understood why the Excel directions recommend 5x the normal amount for initial use or after a "major water change". Any ideas?
This is a really good question. I had wondered about that as well. Perhaps it is to shock algae in the tank? I'll send SeaChem a message and find out why.
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapins View Post
This is a really good question. I had wondered about that as well. Perhaps it is to shock algae in the tank? I'll send SeaChem a message and find out why.
Love to know what they say - even Seachem downplays the algicidal properties of Excel, and don't even mention it in the directions. They have this to say in the FAQ: "This is a known side effect of Flourish Excel that may sometimes occur. It has been reported to us by other consumers, however it does not occur under all conditions therefore we do not promote it or sell it for that purpose."
I wonder if labeling something an algicide has special requirements...?

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