Water Change & Temperature - The Planted Tank Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Nbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 347
Water Change & Temperature

Hello,
I'm a newb...just got my co2 installed a few days ago (see more details in my sig), working next on starting the EI dosing....but, tomorrow doing a water change, and today bought a Rubbermaid "Roughneck" 45 gallon trash bin to hold my water overnight, this is why I thought this was best water changing method:

1. Living in Madison, WI, water is pretty hard, everyone has a water softener. We do as well, its a NaCl (salt) water softener. The water softener is *not* hooked up to the cold water side of the kitchen sink.
2. I read somewhere that using the 'hot' water was bad for possible copper contamination, and to only use the cold side of the kitchen faucet.
3. Cold water is coming about MUCH colder than the 77'F I have the tank set at.....
...off-note...(4)...I was worried about chlorine/chloramines and dosing for them out of the tank, but apparently Seachem Prime can just be put direct into the tank...so that's not an issue anymore....

So, if I'm going to start doing 50% water changes with the EI, I figured it would be prudent not to be dumping in 55'F water...so, I got the trashcan w/ wheels, and letting 25 gallons sit overnight to warm up to room temp, 68-70'F.

However, seems most people here, including Rex & Tom B, just pump water straight into the tank...I'm assuming ya'll just turn on the hot & cold so as to not shock the fish...but, do you think I should be concerned about the 1) copper and 2) water softener, both of which are on the hot water? If just using a python connection is all I need to do, then that just makes it so much easier in the long run, and I can return the Rubbermaid and spend money on tubing and adapters for a diy python.

NOTE: I have used the bathtub to fill up the aquarium (and a 5g bucket) since I set this all up a month ago (ie, water softener used). Then I was thinking that my water softener may be trouble for the tank, and did find several threads saying it could screw things up...so, today I bought a kh & gh API test kit, fearing that my water softener would have my kh & gh way to low....but, no, kh was 17 and gh 9. Remember, I just added the co2 2 days ago, so the ph is coming down, so yes the kh is a little high for now but should come down.

Anyways, I guess, that the water softener doesn't seem to have wrecked/lowered my kh & gh at all, so should I not be concerned about using only the non-softened water (ie, use both hot & cold water from the kitchen sink), and just make a python to make my life easier?

What about the copper & hot water pipes?

Here's tests as of Saturday (yes, I know these cheap kits aren't that reliable):
4/21/07
Phosphate: 1ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm
gH: 9
kH: 17
pH: 7.4 (slowing bringing down ph from 8.0 on Thursday, will end up at 6.5 or so by Tuesday)

NOTE: To do a *SEARCH* and get the answer you want, its often best to go to "Advanced Search" and search in the title only.
Nbot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 08:56 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Naja002's Avatar
 
PTrader: (50/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Usa
Posts: 2,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbot View Post
Hello,
I'm a newb...just got my co2 installed a few days ago (see more details in my sig), working next on starting the EI dosing....but, tomorrow doing a water change, and today bought a Rubbermaid "Roughneck" 45 gallon trash bin to hold my water overnight, this is why I thought this was best water changing method:

1. Living in Madison, WI, water is pretty hard, everyone has a water softener. We do as well, its a NaCl (salt) water softener. The water softener is *not* hooked up to the cold water side of the kitchen sink.
2. I read somewhere that using the 'hot' water was bad for possible copper contamination, and to only use the cold side of the kitchen faucet.
3. Cold water is coming about MUCH colder than the 77'F I have the tank set at.....
...off-note...(4)...I was worried about chlorine/chloramines and dosing for them out of the tank, but apparently Seachem Prime can just be put direct into the tank...so that's not an issue anymore....

So, if I'm going to start doing 50% water changes with the EI, I figured it would be prudent not to be dumping in 55'F water...so, I got the trashcan w/ wheels, and letting 25 gallons sit overnight to warm up to room temp, 68-70'F.

However, seems most people here, including Rex & Tom B, just pump water straight into the tank...I'm assuming ya'll just turn on the hot & cold so as to not shock the fish...but, do you think I should be concerned about the 1) copper and 2) water softener, both of which are on the hot water? If just using a python connection is all I need to do, then that just makes it so much easier in the long run, and I can return the Rubbermaid and spend money on tubing and adapters for a diy python.

NOTE: I have used the bathtub to fill up the aquarium (and a 5g bucket) since I set this all up a month ago (ie, water softener used). Then I was thinking that my water softener may be trouble for the tank, and did find several threads saying it could screw things up...so, today I bought a kh & gh API test kit, fearing that my water softener would have my kh & gh way to low....but, no, kh was 17 and gh 9. Remember, I just added the co2 2 days ago, so the ph is coming down, so yes the kh is a little high for now but should come down.

Anyways, I guess, that the water softener doesn't seem to have wrecked/lowered my kh & gh at all, so should I not be concerned about using only the non-softened water (ie, use both hot & cold water from the kitchen sink), and just make a python to make my life easier?

What about the copper & hot water pipes?

Here's tests as of Saturday (yes, I know these cheap kits aren't that reliable):
4/21/07
Phosphate: 1ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm
gH: 9
kH: 17
pH: 7.4 (slowing bringing down ph from 8.0 on Thursday, will end up at 6.5 or so by Tuesday)
Hi and Welcome!

1) I have used the Hot water supply for over 30 yrs. I think that folks just speculate with "Possible contamination". That's MO and ME.

2) I have also used straight cold and dropped the temp 20F in minutes. Some fish will stress--others handle it--No Problem. And I am referring to fish of the same type, so it seems to be an "individual" thing. I've no doubt that different fish have different tolerances--so use Your best judgment.

3) If You are going to use the container to store the water over night--just toss in a heater and the problem is solved. Otherwise, You can toss a powerful heater into the system--set low--so that it only comes on during water changes. That will help bring the temp up to minimum faster--However, it doesn't work as well as it sounds!

4) I would circumvent the salt based softner.

5) You may want to consider a Semi or Fully Automatic WC system.


HTH


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Naja002 is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 12:05 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Rex Grigg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland Orygun
Posts: 9,600
If those water readings are from the softened water then you might want to check that there is salt in the unit. If there is then it's time to get it serviced or replaced. You can get water softeners that use potassium chloride.

If you let the hot water run for a couple of minutes any copper that has leached into the water in the pipes will be flushed out. However I'm not a big fan of softened water.

If your kH really is 17° then your natural pH should be much closer to 8.2-8.4 so watch that pH drop closely as each additional 0.2° below 7.2° is going to add a huge amount of CO2
Rex Grigg is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Nbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 347
Rex,
Good point about the co2 increase (spike!) below ph7.2 or so...It hadn't dawned on me as such, but I just used Chuck's co2 calculator and now I see what you mean...I was just assuming that I needed to get ph down to the 6.5--6.7 range since that's what I had seen other people at.

I did order a co2 drop-checker from BlackSunshine, should have that this week, until then I guess I'll keep a rough idea of co2 via kh & ph values.

Won't my kh come down w/ the higher co2 and lower ph though?

Other question Rex...are you going to be selling the dry ferts soon? I need to get some shipped out shortly, not sure if you are going to have them in stock in next few days?

I'm going to go measure the kh/gh of my non-softened water that sat out overnight...my water softener is maybe 3 years old, nice digital Hellenbrand, with plenty of salt in there...is there any other reason my kh would be reading so high (besides a cheap test kit?)

NOTE: To do a *SEARCH* and get the answer you want, its often best to go to "Advanced Search" and search in the title only.
Nbot is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 06:08 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 111
Send a message via AIM to JHipkin
If you have the time you could just use the cold water and an inline heater. A Python Water Change System will help you attach your fill line directly to the faucet and contol the flow so that the heater has time to bring the water up to temp. Add some Prime to the tank and you are good to go. Just don't forget that you are doing this or you may have a flood. A kitchen timer is a handy reminder device.

I haven't tried this as we don't have a water softner so be careful, it might not work. I just mix hot and cold at the tap until I have a temp that is w/in a degree of the tank, and then refil w/ the aforementioned Python System.
JHipkin is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Nbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 347
Ok, so I just remeasured the Hot water from the bathroom (supposedly water softened), the cold water from the kitchen sink left overnight in a Rubbermaid (room temp now, not water softened), and my tank again:

4/22/07
Hot Bathroom Water (ie, should be water softened):
Gh: 1 or 2? (Doesn’t go orange at all w/ the drops, just straight to green)
Kh: 14
Ph: 7.5

Cold Kitchen sink water left out overnight in the Rubbermaid:
Gh: 1 or 2? (Doesn’t go orange at all w/ the drops, just straight to green)
Kh: 16
Ph: 7.5
Nitrate: 10ppm
Phosphate: 0.5ppm

Tank:
Gh: 11
Kh: 18
Ph: 6.9
Nitrate: 20ppm
Phosphate: 0.5ppm

Notes:
1. Does it look like my water softener is working? Difference is only 2 on kh, and the same for gh...does this seem about right?
2. OKAY, so apparently my Milwaukee SMS122 was WAY OFF, I dipped in in the 7.01 regent, and it read 7.5!!! And I just set it 2 days ago on Friday! I hope it doesn't roam this much again, I will be upset. So, I recalibrated to 7.0, and remeasured everything. I realize now, with my supposed kh & ph in my tank, that my co2 is at 60ppm! But...NONE of the fish are acting weird or 'gasping' so what gives? I guess I need my co2 drop checker to hurry up and arrive....I will have to check the calibration on the SMS122 very often now to make sure its not 'roaming' until I can trust it.
3. Okay, so, back to the original question.....should I be letting my water sit overnight in a rubbermaid, and doing a water change from there, or is it okay to use a phyhon straight from the (a) cold or (b) hot & cold of the kitchen sink given these parameter readings?

So far, I have Rex saying to avoid water softeners, but based on the #'s here, not sure its such a big deal...well, I guess I didn't measure the salt content, so maybe it is!

I guess other big concern is the sudden water temp. change, if I go straight from the cold. Letting it warm up to room temp. overnight seems reasonable, but sure would be easier to do just the python....c'mon, I know most of you are using the python method, but I couldn't find ANYTHING on searches on water change & temperature swings....so maybe its not a big deal? (but you'd think it was given the care some of you go thru for even just introducing new fish to your aquarium temp)

NOTE: To do a *SEARCH* and get the answer you want, its often best to go to "Advanced Search" and search in the title only.
Nbot is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 09:36 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Betowess's Avatar
 
PTrader: (27/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Skagit County, Washington State
Posts: 3,199
An inline heater would take a couple of hours at least to bring the temp up. Food for thought. Some just put a 250 watt heater in your prep water rubbermaid can overnight. I've never used hot water for the previously mentioned reasons. But I suppose, if you run it for a few minutes and then try using it, it will save the hassle of prepping 40 gallons of water once a week.





Three Tanks...Eheim 2128 & XP3-90G, Eheim 2128-65G, Eheim 2232-25G.... Tek 4x54 watt T5-90G, Aqualight 96watt PC 65G low tech, 65 watt Aqualight-25G.... Hydors-90G & 65G ... Flourite in 90, 65, & 25 Gallons, .... Auto Water Change/Auto dosing on 90 & 65 gallon..... AGA member......
Betowess is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-22-2007, 10:12 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
mott's Avatar
 
PTrader: (32/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: nj
Posts: 2,101
I would get a copper test kit and check for yourself.I did a test between hot and cold for copper and the test showed no traces for either but in your case it may be different so test for yourself and let us konw
I wouldnt put more than 10 degrees lower into my own tank but thas just me.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

EHEIM Pimp Club Member #250 2217,2026,2236
mott is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 12:23 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 111
Send a message via AIM to JHipkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betowess View Post
An inline heater would take a couple of hours at least to bring the temp up. Food for thought. Some just put a 250 watt heater in your prep water rubbermaid can overnight. I've never used hot water for the previously mentioned reasons. But I suppose, if you run it for a few minutes and then try using it, it will save the hassle of prepping 40 gallons of water once a week.
I run hot and cold water when I use the Python to remove tank water. I expect that this gets rid of any copper that may have leached into the water line. I haven't tested but I have been using this sytem for several years to no ill affect.
JHipkin is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 01:51 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Rex Grigg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland Orygun
Posts: 9,600
I'm back in the Fert business. I may not be ready to ship till this weekend as I still have some stuff to package up.

I'm not doing it this evening though. 7.5 hours of driving is more than I like.
Rex Grigg is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 05:12 AM
Guest
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 123
I have used a mixture of hot (softened with a softener) and cold (not softened) for years. I have had no problems and I just adjust the temp to equal tank temp. I use no water conditioner of any kind and have never had any problems. I have bred angels, corys, convicts and even Discus a few years back. We have deep aquifer city water and there are few chemicals added. The salt content of softened water is very small as it is used to regenerate the softener. When my salt gets low I add some as no salt = hard water.
Gene
Tsquare is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 12:09 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Rex Grigg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland Orygun
Posts: 9,600
The sodium content of softened water can be quite high. If you have really hard water it will be much higher than if you only have moderately hard water.
Rex Grigg is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-23-2007, 12:47 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
kzr750r1's Avatar
 
PTrader: (9/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 1,235
So it's been mentioned here that your tank heater can overcome the temp difference. Takes time though.

I have killed fish with speed changes from the tap, suspect due to temp shock.

These days the WC is finished very slow, especially in the winter. Turn off the pump, fill from one side and let the fish go where the water is warmer. Of course depends on the tank size if they have a warm pocket to hide in for a bit.

This technique has fixed my situation as there is no room for a container in my house.

RIP - 55g - Eheim 2026 and 2217 - DIY CO2 reactor - Turbo Twist 3x - Tek Light t5 pendant w/ 2x54 6500k - ecocomplete mixed with Red Sea florabase.
"Better to be shot out of a cannon then squeezed through a tube" - HST
kzr750r1 is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Nbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 347
I haven't been able to log on here for over a week, somehow I triggered an IP block by the forum, the admin is supposed to be checking in on it, but for now I've figured out how to use a proxy server to access the site, hopefully can get my IP addy reset from my ISp.....anyways

...bought a phython to try out, didn't fit on my fancy kitchen faucet, but did drain to the bath-tub...I guess for now I'll just use cold water and let it warm up to room temp (68-70) overnight..I haven't decided if using the hot water w/ the softener is safe or not, Tsquare is saying it is, Rex is saying it might not be, guess I'll ask around the LFS's...

NOTE: To do a *SEARCH* and get the answer you want, its often best to go to "Advanced Search" and search in the title only.
Nbot is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 03:19 AM
Planted Member
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Connecticut, USA
Posts: 256
If I recall correctly, home water softening systems reduce calcium and magnesium by replacing them with other ions (depending on what type of salt you use), which technically lowers general hardness, but keeps your total dissolved solids the same, which is the main concern with fish that prefer "soft" water. So the water softening system really does not do much, if anything. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Chrona is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome