Reason/s not to Drip-Acclimate your critters?? - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aman74 View Post
I want to work with CRS, but haven't yet. My concern would be in adding a chemical additive in that small of an amount of water. Not sure if these guys are really that sensitive, but from some reports you look at them funny and they die. There were also reports that certain brands of additives affected the shrimp negatively, but who knows if that was the real issue at hand.
Do *NOT* use Amquel+ or Stress Coat. My shrimp, and others' too, kept dropping their eggs with these products. With Prime, everything is fine.
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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:09 PM
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There claim states that they make the only kit that uses the gas exchage method.

It would seem odd that if it's a viable testing method that they are the only ones to sell it...being that we live in a very competitive marketplace.

I hadn't heard of that kind of test before, cool to learn new things everyday.

Maybe someone who knows there chemistry will chime in.

Maybe I will register at cichlid forum and see why people claim that an ammonia detoxifier is useless in this case. I'm into cichlids anyhow so it might be a good place to join.
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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:17 PM
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Know what's funny?

Check out: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...iid/447/cid/58

Quote:
Note: Water containing Ammo LockŪ and other ammonia-removing chemicals should be tested using an ammonia kit (LM3304) that uses the salicylate method (0 to 2.0 mg/liter).
The LaMotte test kit tests from 1 to 8mg/L, and the salicylate test kit range is from 0 to 2.0mg/L, so maybe it's able to test at a lower range of ammonia values due to the AmmoLock, etc...?
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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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If doing the purposed experiment, maybe test it with both of those test kits??? That way one could even compare those results?

Note: Why are those LaMotte test kits so expensive? Lab quality? How accurate are those test kits? If I'm going to pay that much money, they better be darn accurate!
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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfish View Post
Know what's funny?

Check out: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...iid/447/cid/58



The LaMotte test kit tests from 1 to 8mg/L, and the salicylate test kit range is from 0 to 2.0mg/L, so maybe it's able to test at a lower range of ammonia values due to the AmmoLock, etc...?
Not sure...but the issue Seachem raises with the salicylate test is that they raise the pH in order to get a reading and when that happens the ammonia detoxifying agents unbind with the ammonia and give a false positive.

I dunno, my head is starting to spin now, lol.
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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 08:41 PM
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SeaChem also says that if the test is done immediately after Prime or AmmoLock is added, it should be fine?
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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by epicfish View Post
Do *NOT* use Amquel+ or Stress Coat. My shrimp, and others' too, kept dropping their eggs with these products. With Prime, everything is fine.
Thanks for the tip.

I was thinking that maybe one of the products that just removes chlorine may be safer. We don't have chloramine here according to the water dept. and even if they infrequently use it, the antichlorine products usually remove chloramine as well if you use higher doses. So I was thinking one of those products would be better since they have less chemicals in them.

However, if Prime is proven amongst shrimp keepers I will most likely just go with that.
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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2007, 11:55 PM
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When O2 hits the water in the bag when you open it, the pH shifts and causes the ammonium to turn into toxic ammonia. So you are still getting a rapid pH change and an ammonia spike with the drip method. That seems to be the argument against the drip method. I personally don't know which is correct at this point, just illustrating what the general argument is.

I don't know if squirting some detoxifier will help or not. Some do it and others say it's useless...like in the cichlid forum thread.
Why does it shift?
Due to CO2 or something else?

The only thing that would cause it to shift would be CO2 and the amount of cO2 in question here is VERY small relative to the air outside the bag I would suggest.

If the acids in the bag are high that would imply less NH3(more toxic) and more NH4+(less toxic).

Adding ammo lock is not a bad idea, nor would adding anything that dropped the pH some.

But............

Adding that is no better either and those tend to have salts of some sort........

What is the large variable is how long have the fish been exposed to NH3/NH4 and at what concentration.

Time x concentration = dose.

If you are at the bitter end of a fish's death throes.......then perhaps, but unless you have a lot of NH3/NH4...........I am far from convinced of this argument.

I think the 1 hour of drip and dilution, as that pH goes up, you are adding new clean water and diluting the NH3/NH4 anyway.
That drives the pH down again.

But equilibrium pH depends on what?
The alkalinity................not CO2.

I think you have to have a very weakened fish to start with and hard shipping water, and poorly packed fish(too many per bag) for this to be a real issue as presented thus far.

CO2 can and does exchange out through those bags, so you end up with a much smaller pH change relative to ambient.

The more I think about this, the more it really seems like BS...............I want data and toxicology papers showing that drip is worst than dumping the fish in there with a range of pH's/alkalinity/CO2 addition or not and over the time frame in question, 1 hour or so.

You cannot say that much otherwise.

The small increase in NH3 for a brief period and then heavily dilution over that same time frame while the gases equilibrate using the drip method (which takes 1-2 hours with a drop checker FYI, let's say 30 minutes here) seems like they cancel eachother out fairly quick.

That issue was not addressed anywhere.

It I have 250mls of shipping water and have exposured the fish to 24 hours of shipping, say NH3 is at 0.1ppm, then airing it out, the amount jumps to 0.15ppm in 1 hour after opening the bag, we also have the drip tank water adding 500mls to this same volume.

Now assuming the tank water to have 0.0ppm, we now have 0.15ppm NH3/3= 0.05ppm and falling fast...........at the end of that 1 hour peroid, the pH will be that of the tank, and NH3 has gone from 250mls and 0.1 to .15ppm NH3/10x or whatever volume you do the drip method to, I add about 10x as much tank water vs the bag water..........0.015, or 15ppb. Pretty low and for a mere hour or less.
Leaving the fish in the bag another 15 minutes is worst..........I'd argue.

So it's like leaving the fish in the bag another 1 hour sealed or better ...............

Exposure is the key issue here and for how long and what other things are affecting the concentrations of NH3.

I do not see a long time of exposure, I do not see a large pH shift that is immediate(which seems to be assumed by these folks), I do not see the time dependency of the dilution factor included, rather, conveniently left out.......


Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 07:00 AM
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Tom, thanks for the thorough response even if it is admittedly a bit over my head


Quote:
Adding ammo lock is not a bad idea, nor would adding anything that dropped the pH some

But............

Adding that is no better either and those tend to have salts of some sort........
I'm confused, do you think it's a good or bad idea? Salts are in the pH down products right? What about the ammolock?


Quote:
But equilibrium pH depends on what?
The alkalinity................not CO2
Doesn't CO2 affect pH as well?

Quote:
CO2 can and does exchange out through those bags, so you end up with a much smaller pH change relative to ambient
Which bags? Any standard shipping bag? So this would mean that the breather bags aren't of much benefit?

Does the air exchange happen through the portion of the bag in contact with water as well? I'm wondering because floating would then cut off alot of the air exchange right?


Quote:
The small increase in NH3 for a brief period and then heavily dilution over that same time frame while the gases equilibrate using the drip method (which takes 1-2 hours with a drop checker FYI, let's say 30 minutes here) seems like they cancel eachother out fairly quick
I thought you recommended an hour not up to 2 and where does the drop checker and 30 minutes come in? Just trying to keep the recommendation straight.

Can you give us a description of your method for acclimating, tips, etc...

I'm surprised noone replied, I thought people were pretty interested in this topic.
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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 07:45 AM
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I think you are misunderstanding me,

I'm saying the effect on pH due to CO2 and other issues is relatively small.
KH, not pH, is more important and anyone using CO2 gas can prove this easily.................you can also have much less CO2 involved than the levels we use which is often 1 full unit above ambient levels.

So a pH difference of 0.2-0.4 pH units due to CO2 enrichment from fish respiration in a drip acclimator is and never was an issue.

Fish easily handle pH changes due to CO2 differences in the water.

Many products add salts as they reduce the effects of NO2's etc.
Chloride specifically reduces the toxicity of NO2.........

Adding some will not hurt as long as folks do not go too far.

Breather bags are great, they allow O2 inside/CO2 out.
That's the issue, not the acclimation/drip etc.

The CO2 inside the air of a sealed bag is the same as what is in the bag's water. So the entire surface will exchange CO2/O2.

30-60 minutes is a typical acclimation time for me.
Drop checkers are used to measure pH change due to CO2.
They take awhile to respond to CO2 change, and the time involved with acclimation, 30-60minutes, is also long. These things do not place fish is a stressful condition.

It(some of the company's claims) seems like fear mongering to me.
We can and have tested these same issues every week doing a water change and adding high CO2 and having the pH move around rapidly.
Fish are fine.



Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
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post #41 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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" 30-60 minutes is a typical acclimation time for me" Tom, would you do this longer for the more sensitive fish/inverts?
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post #42 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-29-2007, 06:19 PM
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Sure, 60-120 minutes will work, but the point that these clowns make about it being better just dumping things in and adding a squirt of their miracle juice is a bit much...............

Osmoregulation is a far more serious issue than sitting on a bag of fish for another 60-120 minutes before adding them..............

They have some points.........but they are misapplied to suit their marketing..........
Regards,
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