PO4 overdose: plant in trouble - The Planted Tank Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
Nix
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Old World
Posts: 78
PO4 overdose: plant in trouble

Hello!

A half week ago I made an error while dosing macro ferts. I confused KNO3 and KH2PO4 and doesed PO4 up to 9mg/l. I realized it some hours later, came hastely back home, looked into my tank and saw this:



Actually it was worse, this is how it looks today after pruning (a bit too much). The top leaves of the ludwigia were hanging down, even the topmost of the very large ones you can see on the picture. It has become a bit better by now, but now there are other defects to see on the leaves. The leaves I pruned off the lower stem were showing transparent areas, too. And fell off at the slightest touch!
The plant also hasn't grown in the last four days, while its sisters next to it did quite a bit.

Some other ludwigiae of another species also showed that hangdog expression at that day if not to that extent. But they were ok again the day after.

It's only this one ludwigia (not sure of the species: L. repens 'rubin'?), formerly the most beautiful of them all, which is effected this deeply. This is how it looked one week prior the incident:



I've made a ca. 80% waterchange, immediately. The PO4 was 2 mg/l afterwards.

Also a day or two later I found GSA on an Anubias, a Crypt. parva and the glass directly in front of them.
The location should be no accident as I did drop in the dry fert at that spot.

Has anybody an idea how this came to be, what my plant is ailing with and will she recover? Something similar to Cryptocoryne rot perhaps?

And why the outbreak of GSA?

I'd read that GSA would actually go away at high PO4 and it was my experience it being so...

Also I need advice if I should stop dosing PO4 for a while, because of luxery uptake? All the plant's reserviors should be quiete filled for weeks?

I did my regular waterchange today and haven't added any PO4. It should be around 1 mg/l.

Any thought and advice very welcome, thanks in advance!
Nix
Nix is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 04:11 PM
Planted Member
 
Jackfrost's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Milford CT
Posts: 172
I didn't see any water numbers, but I would not worry too much. Keep doing some 50% water changes.

You do not want to start "over correcting"

P.S. I have done the same thing also !

* Eheim Pimp Club Member No. 97 *
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

65 gallon, Eheim 2128,Eheim 2026, Hagen surface extractor, 18 watt UV Turbo Twist, M3 Pressurized CO2, 5 lb CO2 tank, AM 1000 Reactor, Laterite, river gravel mix.

90 gallon under construction. Eheim 2128, Eheim 2026, Coralife 4x65W, AM 1000 reactor, JBJ Pressurized CO2, 5 lb CO2 tank, Turbo Twist 6x UV, No substrate yet.

AGA Member. The Barr Report Member.
Jackfrost is offline  
post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 05:11 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
Anthony's Avatar
 
PTrader: (10/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Covington, LA.
Posts: 1,072
That is luwdwiga glandulosa. Definitely a beautiful plant. I must get this plant again soon.

40 gallon SeaClear Acrylic, 192 watt Orbit Lunar PC, Filstar XP2, Filstar XP1, JBJ Regulator, Rhinox 5000 glass co2 diffusor, 9 watt UV sterilizer, Hydor Inline Heater, Pool Filter Sand substrate
Filstar pimp #53

How comes shoppings so stupid, looks at all this stuff I haves, what do I do's with it.
Anthony is offline  
 
post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
Nix
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Old World
Posts: 78
L. glandulosa? Oh, thank you. I sure hope she will get over the shock, she has been a real problem child the last two years.

It shows it's not that undangerous to dose ferts dry, I guess!

Somebody know how GSA can happen even when PO4 is more than high or especially because it is high? Baffles me.

So you would go up on my normal dose, that's 2 mg/L/week, of PO4 again, regardless?

As Jackfrost asked my "water numbers", here they are:

2 W/g; GH 7; KH 3; NO3 20 mg/l; PO4 1 mg/l (normally around 2 mg/l); CO2 ca. 3O mg/l; Fe ?; pH ?

Thanks!
Nix is offline  
post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 12-31-2006, 07:20 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,012
If your plants were growing vigorously then confusing PO4 and NO3 would cause harm by underdosing the nitrates. Then you did a big water change, reducing the nitrates still more. And, the high phosphates encourage the plants to grow still faster, demanding still more nitrates. So, I suggest you assume you have corrected the problem, resume normal nitrate/phosphate dosing, and expect normal plant growth.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline  
post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2007, 12:22 AM
Banned
 
PTrader: (37/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,502
Really? Aww this chemistry is killing me!

I've been keeping my nitrate at about 20 ppm and i've been unknowingly, untill yesterday when my test came in, keeping my phosphate at.. are you ready? ten!

I still have GSA and as you can imagine, diatoms lmao. I've since gotten my phosphate level down to 2. I expect the diatoms to go away and the GSA to get stronger


I always find that the GSA grows almost exclusively on the first two inches of glass... not above. Strange.I have added jobes sticks, yes, but the GSA never grew above that line before I added them and before I dosed phosphate.
deleted_user_7 is offline  
post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2007, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
Nix
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Old World
Posts: 78
Really, justlikeapill, you still got GSA with long time 10 mg/l PO4? This is getting not to my liking.

With me it was surely the very local dry fert overdose that made the problems. Not that I understand
the outbreak of that algae in any way. I hoped to get some enlightening here from the experts.

Hoppy, I don't think the nitrate even went too low while it happened, I had 5mg/l of it still when
I tested the water after the big change. And I dosed it up again, but not the phosphate.

And it just this one plant so effected and of course the mysterious GSA in its vacinity. But I will do
as you say and just pretend it never happened.

On to less mysterious topics...and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Nix is offline  
post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,012
It is rarely a good idea to depend on test kits for decisions on how much fertilizer to add unless you first calibrate the test kits. So, part of your problem may be inaccurate test kits, a common occurrence. Both nitrate and phosphate test kits have been reported to have been way off several times on these forums.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline  
post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2007, 05:33 PM
Banned
 
PTrader: (37/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,502
OOHkay. I'll look up how to calibrate my test kits. Thanks!

IF there are off can you do a little math to compensate or do you have to buy new ones?
deleted_user_7 is offline  
post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-01-2007, 08:30 PM
Algae Grower
 
defdac's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Linkoping, Sweden
Posts: 125
I've also managed to induce these "calcium deficiency"-like new twisted growth in L. glandulosa with high PO4.

It seems one can limit this "calcium deficiency" in low KH-waters by either have somewhat limiting NO3 or PO4.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
defdac is offline  
post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-02-2007, 03:10 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
If the PO4 is good, then the CO2 is the main suspect for GSA.

When you add high PO4 to an otherwise PO4 limited tank(goes back to the either EI or test kit calibration), this can increase the CO2 uptake dramatically.

That can lead to mild issues.
Many over dosing experiences lead to increased CO2 uptake because many assume that the levels where fine and adding more would not increase growth more and that it would have no effect on the CO2 deamnd.

This is a very common issue with folks and excess nutrient "issues".
I try to explain but many simply do not believe me and I test the issues, and have done so many times in the past to show and prove this to myself and to them, but they do not come back and support their claims later

Correaltion does not = causation
You should be skeptical and cautious about your own assumptions.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-02-2007, 04:50 PM
Algae Grower
 
defdac's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Linkoping, Sweden
Posts: 125
The following seems to go hand in hand with most things that this and other planted tank communites have to say about calcium related disorders.

Folks have claimed to much NO3, PO4, light and even CO2 to be the reason for calcium deficiencies. Also many have said that it seems that large and established root systems seems to be a cure for it. Or shade. Or less light. Or less PO4 or even less NO3 (kekon).

INTERACTION BETWEEN NUTRIENT UPTAKE AND PHOTOSYNTHESIS

"Calcium deficiencies are not necessarily alleviated by raising soil calcium levels. Activity of the plant in uptake and translocation of calcium is crucial for accumulating sufficient quantities of this element. Kirkby (1979) reviewed the factors important in maximizing calcium uptake by plants. He reviewed the literature dealing with calcium uptake through the free space pathway (the apoplast) which requires continuously growing roots to always have root segments available for calcium uptake. He pointed to soil factors, such as low temperature, inadequate aeration, poor nutrient status or high hydrogen-ion concentration, which inhibit root growth and also inhibit calcium uptake. Light has also been reported to be a factor in calcium uptake (Kasztori, 1969; Scheidecker and Andropoulos-Remand, 1971). Light may influence the uptake of calcium by influencing photosynthesis.

It is well known that a wide variety of plants, if forced to grow fast, will develop more calcium-related disorders (Shear, 1975; Cox, McKee and Dearman, 1976). Fast-growing plants apparently partition the products of photosynthesis in such a way that the carbohydrate supply received by the root is insufficient for a high rate of calcium uptake. It is immaterial whether the high rate of growth is induced by pruning or by high nitrogen fertilization (Kirkby, 1979). Recent work with photosynthetic inhibitors has indicated that decrease in photosynthetic activity (Sharma, Ferree and Hartman, 1977) may also severely inhibit root growth and calcium uptake (Faust and Korcak, 1979). Thus the role of photosynthesis in calcium uptake is strongly implicated. This work has been undertaken to evaluate the importance of photosynthesis in root growth and/or in calcium uptake."


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
defdac is offline  
post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-02-2007, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
Nix
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Old World
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdac View Post
I've also managed to induce these "calcium deficiency"-like new twisted growth in L. glandulosa with high PO4.
Hi, defdac, that's interessting, and a relief to hear! I wondered already if I saw ghosts. So you think it was a sudden Calcium deficiency caused by the PO4 overdose? And that can be so obvious and dramatic inside of three hours? Wow.https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/im...on_neutral.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
If the PO4 is good, then the CO2 is the main suspect for GSA.

When you add high PO4 to an otherwise PO4 limited tank(goes back to the either EI or test kit calibration), this can increase the CO2 uptake dramatically.

That can lead to mild issues.
Hi, Tom. I'm pretty sure PO4 is and has not been limited in my tank for quite a while.

With my medium light the uptake of all the nutrients isn't that overwhelming anyway and the levels therefore rather easy to maintain.

That issue with CO2: I can't say it was so or not, because the drop checker is quite slow in reacting and never showed a swing of color worthy of notice. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a sudden drop in CO2, I just haven't seen one. I believe you if you say that could have been the issue with the GSA. I for sure have no explanation at all for it!

The leaves with the algae spots will go the way of all wordly matters with the next pruning and I hope I won't see those algae again.

Thanks to all of you!
Nix is offline  
post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-03-2007, 12:07 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Given the recent massive molecular research done the last 30+ years in understanding the nutrient uptake processes since these articles where published, you may want to find something a lot more recent rather than these old articles, or at least something in addition to these articles.

There is a lot more known now, 2007, about Ca++ and it's role.
When you look at a review, also look at the when it was published.

When we drive high light, CO2 enriched systems, the Ca might have issues, but...........aquatic plants do not have to transport Ca++.
Why might that be?

Aquatic plants make good models for such issues!! But we do need to be careful how we apply terrestial support to aquatic macrophytes.

Ca++ can be supplied and no need for transport at all in aquatic plants!!
The Ca++ ions are all over the plant and the roots!! Obviously Ca++ is in the water column, but it's obviously lacking in the air!

In terrestrial systems, they generally have to transport Ca++ from the root to the shoot, most aquatic plants are well adapted to get their Ca, Mg, K+ from the water column.

If folks would like a Ca++ reference listing, I have maybe 50 to 100.
Most are very recent(5 years or less).

But the point made about pushuing growth too fast and suffering, does apply often times to many things, not just CA, but CO2, NO3 etc.

Plants cannot just keep being pushed in terms of their growth rates infinitely.
Have a little patience, use less light, that drives CO2 uptake which regulates N metabloism which regulates K+/P/Traces etc on down the line.

It all starts with light.
So if you fret over limiting anything, try reducing and adding "just enough" light instead, from a management prespective, that's the wisest choice and makes the most sense.

That affords you more methods, more wiggle room, less water changes, more reliance on the water column or substrate etc etc.

FWIW, L granulosus is a rather easy plant, in ADA AS, EC, Flourite, plain old sand even.

Just keep the nutrients up and decent CO2 and maintain things in a stablke range.

It's not a hard plant to grow.
You likely are making an assumption somewhere and it's leading to scratch your head. But excess PO4 is not the cause. That much I am fairly sure of.
I've had that plant for perhaps 8 years, each time, lack of dosing(less so, tends to get sort of plae with leaner dosing IME), or CO2, that's about the only things that produces that specific response. It'll liose lower leaves also if not happy.

I've tortured plenty of plants at higher ranges and seen enough to know generalizations.I have tanks of my own and clients.
They have this same plant also, grows quite fast for them.
It'll get somewhat stunted twisted tips when folks mess with the CO2 and when they do not listen to me about the CO2.
When they do, and I go in and make sure, the issue goes away.

Large water changes, dosing right back afterwards, 2-3x a week will rule out all the nutrients if you add them.

All you are left with is CO2 and light and general maintenace issues such as pruning, patience etc.


Regards,
Tom Barr


Quote:
Originally Posted by defdac View Post
The following seems to go hand in hand with most things that this and other planted tank communites have to say about calcium related disorders.

INTERACTION BETWEEN NUTRIENT UPTAKE AND PHOTOSYNTHESIS

"Calcium deficiencies are not necessarily alleviated by raising soil calcium levels. Activity of the plant in uptake and translocation of calcium is crucial for accumulating sufficient quantities of this element. Kirkby (1979) reviewed the factors important in maximizing calcium uptake by plants. He reviewed the literature dealing with calcium uptake through the free space pathway (the apoplast) which requires continuously growing roots to always have root segments available for calcium uptake. He pointed to soil factors, such as low temperature, inadequate aeration, poor nutrient status or high hydrogen-ion concentration, which inhibit root growth and also inhibit calcium uptake. Light has also been reported to be a factor in calcium uptake (Kasztori, 1969; Scheidecker and Andropoulos-Remand, 1971). Light may influence the uptake of calcium by influencing photosynthesis.

It is well known that a wide variety of plants, if forced to grow fast, will develop more calcium-related disorders (Shear, 1975; Cox, McKee and Dearman, 1976). Fast-growing plants apparently partition the products of photosynthesis in such a way that the carbohydrate supply received by the root is insufficient for a high rate of calcium uptake. It is immaterial whether the high rate of growth is induced by pruning or by high nitrogen fertilization (Kirkby, 1979). Recent work with photosynthetic inhibitors has indicated that decrease in photosynthetic activity (Sharma, Ferree and Hartman, 1977) may also severely inhibit root growth and calcium uptake (Faust and Korcak, 1979). Thus the role of photosynthesis in calcium uptake is strongly implicated. This work has been undertaken to evaluate the importance of photosynthesis in root growth and/or in calcium uptake."



Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 01-03-2007, 02:45 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Here's a few, some are old, some are new.

This is one that I read about Ca and blue light.

CAT.INIST.FR

Another with red light:

Entrez PubMed

This is about the best on line public article:

Calcium in Plants -- WHITE and BROADLEY 92 (4): 487 -- Annals of Botany

If you need more Calcium ref's check the ref section for the White paper above. That should keep you out of trouble for a month or more.

Barber, S. 1995 Soil Nutrient Bioavailability: A Mechanistic Approach
2nd ed. Wiley, John & Sons, Inc.
Edited by L. A. Desougi. H.J. Dumont Edited by A. I. Moghraby 1984.

Dobermann A, Fairhurst T. 2000. Rice. Nutrient disorders & nutrient management. Handbook series. Potash & Phosphate Institute (PPI), Potash & Phosphate Institute of Canada (PPIC) and International Rice Research Institute. 191 p.

Esau, K 1977, Plant Anatomy. 576 pages 2nd Edition edition John Wiley & Sons Canada, Ltd

FINK, S. 1991. Comparative microscopical studies on the patterns of calcium oxalate distribution in the needles of various conifer species. Bot. Acta 104: 306-315.

Franceschi V. R. and Nakata, P. A. 2005. 2005 CALCIUM OXALATE IN PLANTS: Formation and Function Annual Review of Plant Biology Vol. 56: 41-71 June.

Johnson, J. Substrates for the planted aquarium. 2000. Substrates for the Planted Aquarium

Kauss H., Some Aspects of Calcium-Dependent Regulation in Plant Metabolism
Annual Review of Plant Physiology, June 1987, Vol. 38, Pages 47-71

Marschner, H. 1995, 1986. Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants. Academic Press, London.

OKALI, D.U.U. and ATTIONU, R.H. 1974. The quantities of some nutrient elements in Pistia stratiotes L. from the Volta Lake. Ghana Jnl Agric. Sci. 7: 203-208.

Oki. Ito, M. and Ueki, K. 1978. Studies on the growth and reproduction of water hyacinth, Eichhornia crassipes (Mart.) Solms. 1. Effect of nutrients on the growth and reproduction. Weed res., Tokyo 23: 115-120.

SINGH, H.D., NAG, B.,SARMA, A.K., and BARUAH, J.N. 1984. Nutrient control of water hyacinth growth and productivity. In G. Thyagarajan (Ed) Proc. Int. Conf. Water Hyacinth. UNEP, Nairobi p243-263.

SUTCLIFFE, J.E. and BAKER, D.A., 1974. Plants and Mineral salts. Edward and Arnold, London.
Talatala, R.L. 1974. Some aspects of the growth and reproduction of water hyacinth Eichhornia crassipes (Mart.) Solms. Southeast Asian Workshop on aquatic Weeds, Malang, June 1974. mss. 27pp

Tamura S., Kuramochi H. and Ishizawa K. Involvement of Calcium Ion in the Stimulated Shoot Elongation of Arrowhead Tubers under Anaerobic Conditions Plant and Cell Physiology, 2001, Vol. 42, No. 7 717-722

WYN JONES, R.G. and LUNT, O.R. 1967. The function of calcium in plants. Bot. Rev. 33: 407-426.
Zipkin, Isadore, 1973. Biological Mineralization, John Wiley & Sons, NY.

Entrez PubMed

Too much focus on specifics and micromangement and you can miss the larger whole plant response and regulation balance. I seldom suggest micromangement methods, rather, go after things as a whole and rule things out the best you can, but do not rely so heavily on test kits unless you can calibrate them or can estimate using EI or something similar to ensure your assumptions are correct. Then go back and make sure a few times more.


Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome