Censorship Here - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:22 AM Thread Starter
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Censorship Here

I posted a reply to somebody who asked where they could get Tom Barr's ADA substrate substitute. I told them that Mr. Barr was not intending to reveal his discovery without payment in the form of a subscription to his site. The post was summarily deleted.

Why would someone delete a completely truthful message? That seems kind of rotten.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:37 AM
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That's funny. I read your post, followed the link, and when I came back to reply your post was gone. I didn't see anything too outrageous in your post, but will say Tom Barr is looked at as a king, if not a god on this and other boards. I imagine your post generated some negative PMs to the Mods, who decided to remove it. Ultimately the mods decide how to run the board. They make mistakes, but they also do a lot of things very right. This is a great place, and much of that is due to the great way it is moderated. Perhaps this should be moved to the site problems section.


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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King or Not

King or not, it is still the honest truth that Mr. Barr is chosing to withold his knowledge of an inexpensive substitute for ADA substrate unless you pay him. It's up to individuals to decide whether they think that's wrong or not. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I just didn't understand why it was deleted. I didn't want to jump to conclusions so I thought I'd ask here. It surely would be disappointing to learn less than a day after signing up that the free exchange of information is not tolerated here.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953
It surely would be disappointing to learn less than a day after signing up that the free exchange of information is not tolerated here.
It is not, nor should it be. I can think of hundreds examples where "free exchange of information" would be inappropriate here. I haven't decided if your post was one of these. I think the misunderstanding could be in the way you worded your initial post. To me it sounded as if you were attacking Tom (Plantbrain). I think that had you responded to one of his "cliff hanger" posts, it would have been left, but as it seemed you were trying to start something, I can see where a mod could get worried, especially since you are a new member, and they can't see your history. For all they know you were just wanting to bash a fellow member.


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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 04:11 AM
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I think there has to be another explaination. People have challenged Tom Barr many times and he has been more then happy to talk about it. Sometimes I think he enjoys it, as he likes perfecting his rediculous GWAM (gross words a minute). The man types like 5,000 words a second. Legend around these parts is that he has a liquid cooled keyboard for fear that he was simply set it on fire with his finger speed.

Hopefully somebody can answer this for you jbaker. This is a great place and unless you are downright rude you will always get some type of answer.

jB
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 04:21 AM
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It shouldn't be the burden of active members to speak for the moderators' actions and it shoudn't necessarily be the responsibility of new members to think to privately contact the moderators. To many people, starting a topic like this is a logical response and as long as communication is left up to the users this will always occur.

I've voiced my opinion on this before and this is just another example why there should be some kind of reasoning privately offered when a post is deleted. No one should feel compelled to post a "Why was this done?" topic to make their initial inquiry.

I do not understand the reasoning for opening the door to this kind of thing. A brief pm or email, even an automated one, would serve to initiate communication between a member and the moderator staff. Even if a user would not think to initiate first contact by privately messaging, they would be likely to hit reply and respond to a generic private message from the moderator staff. The communication could then take place off the board. The member would get answers to their questions, the moderators would have the opportunity to explain themselves as much or as little as they like, the forum would not have these kinds of topics, uninvolved people would remain uninvolved and active members would not feel compelled to speak for the staff or justify moderation.

If there is to be fallout, it should be between the moderators and the member and should not include the forum population unless there has been some great injustice or obvious bias that was not settled in private. Even then, I'm not sure it should spill out into the forum but my point is there should be a system in place where the moderators make it immediately clear that communication is to take place directly.

How can most of us be expected or justified to respond to this when the moderators and the member are among the few people to have actually seen the posts in question? This causes speculation and by the time the moderators can reply they have to not only deal with the initial complaint but also the speculation that may have followed.

Prevention.

"Insanity: doing [or asking] the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 04:35 AM
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I couldn't agree more with this statement.

jB

Quote:
Originally Posted by random_alias
It shouldn't be the burden of active members to speak for the moderators' actions and it shoudn't necessarily be the responsibility of new members to think to privately contact the moderators. To many people, starting a topic like this is a logical response and as long as communication is left up to the users this will always occur.

I've voiced my opinion on this before and this is just another example why there should be some kind of reasoning privately offered when a post is deleted. No one should feel compelled to post a "Why was this done?" topic to make their initial inquiry.

I do not understand the reasoning for opening the door to this kind of thing. A brief pm or email, even an automated one, would serve to initiate communication between a member and the moderator staff. Even if a user would not think to initiate first contact by privately messaging, they would be likely to hit reply and respond to a generic private message from the moderator staff. The communication could then take place off the board. The member would get answers to their questions, the moderators would have the opportunity to explain themselves as much or as little as they like, the forum would not have these kinds of topics, uninvolved people would remain uninvolved and active members would not feel compelled to speak for the staff or justify moderation.

If there is to be fallout, it should be between the moderators and the member and should not include the forum population unless there has been some great injustice or obvious bias that was not settled in private. Even then, I'm not sure it should spill out into the forum but my point is there should be a system in place where the moderators make it immediately clear that communication is to take place directly.

How can most of us be expected or justified to respond to this when the moderators and the member are among the few people to have actually seen the posts in question? This causes speculation and by the time the moderators can reply they have to not only deal with the initial complaint but also the speculation that may have followed.

Prevention.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 05:30 AM
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I was thinking the same things as I was reading this thread. When posts are edited, or deleted the mods who changed or deleted it should provided an explaination to the posting member. Easy as one two three...


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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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My post said something extremely close to:

"I hope Mr. Barr will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he will not share that information since he has chosen to package and sell his substitute for ADA sand. In addition, it will only be sold to those who have paid to subscribe to his site (http://www.barrreport.com) for the low, low price of $12.95."

And I had a link to the Mr. Barr's posting on his own site that said exactly that. Here it is: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=4

I can't even stretch my imagination to see how that could be construed as an attack. I can't ask the moderator why because I don't know who deleted it. Surely, if for no other reason, they would want to inform me why it was deleted so that I could avoid posting inappropriate messages in the future.

All I can gather is that we should not report the prices of products listed on other Web sites, or point out that things cost money.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953
My post said something extremely close to:

"I hope Mr. Barr will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he will not share that information since he has chosen to package and sell his substitute for ADA sand. In addition, it will only be sold to those who have paid to subscribe to his site (http://www.barrreport.com) for the low, low price of $12.95."

And I had a link to the Mr. Barr's posting on his own site that said exactly that. Here it is: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=4

I can't even stretch my imagination to see how that could be construed as an attack. I can't ask the moderator why because I don't know who deleted it. Surely, if for no other reason, they would want to inform me why it was deleted so that I could avoid posting inappropriate messages in the future.

All I can gather is that we should not report the prices of products listed on other Web sites, or point out that things cost money.

that is lame.
but some people are babies, so some one complained. or maybe a mod took it on himself to right it before it got blown out of proportion.

but this is a site that is run by someone and they and the mods can do what they want and people have to accept it, it is their website and they can run it as they see fit.

oh well. weak but unless someone wants to make their own site where things are not as sugar coated, people have to accept it. good comes with bad.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 06:53 AM
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And the speculation and heresay begins. There are no facts for us to base our opinions on.

This will continue to be a problem for this forum until the protocol is changed to address the communication gap.

It would only take a few seconds to paste something similar to this in a pm to a user when you remove their content from the forum. You wouldn't have to author an original message every time, just paste something in so that they pursue that method of communication.

Quote:
The Planted Tank Forum moderation staff has removed your post because it has been judged to violate one of the following criteria:

*list a few generic criteria or rules here, each one numbered.*

If, upon review, you are still unsure as to the nature of your violation, you may reply to this message and the moderation staff will inform you as to the specific criteria your post violated.

Our sole function is to exercise our judgement in the best interest of the forum to ensure that every member has a pleasant and civil experience."

The judgment of the moderation staff stands and is not debatable.

This added consideration is for your benefit so that you can be aware of the expectations of the forum and avoid having similar posts removed in the future.

"Insanity: doing [or asking] the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 12:04 PM
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Another thread to be closed...

Ahhh capitalism...its great isn't it? What a great definition:

"In common usage capitalism refers to an economic system in which all or most of the means of production are privately owned and operated, and where investment and the production, distribution and prices of commodities (goods and services) are determined by the influence of supply and demand in a "free market," rather than by the state."

If I could market a good that people wanted to pay a price for I would.

Re-boot!
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Georgiadawgger
If I could market a good that people wanted to pay a price for I would.
You're darn tootin'. So would I. I was just informing the person that Tom was unlikely to give him the answer he sought because it was, in essence, a trade secret. I didn't know that was against the rules.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953
My post said something extremely close to:

"I hope Mr. Barr will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he will not share that information since he has chosen to package and sell his substitute for ADA sand. In addition, it will only be sold to those who have paid to subscribe to his site (http://www.barrreport.com) for the low, low price of $12.95."

And I had a link to the Mr. Barr's posting on his own site that said exactly that. Here it is: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=4
Wow, I can't believe that was deleted... the sensitivity to statements regarding some ideas and individuals here is getting ridiculous.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 09-19-2005, 03:53 PM
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I thought about sending this in a PM, but since others have been quoting this I thought clarification is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953
My post said something extremely close to:

"I hope Mr. Barr will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he will not share that information since he has chosen to package and sell his substitute for ADA sand. In addition, it will only be sold to those who have paid to subscribe to his site (http://www.barrreport.com) for the low, low price of $12.95."

And I had a link to the Mr. Barr's posting on his own site that said exactly that. Here it is: http://www.barrreport.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=4
Jbaker, While your post may have been close to that posted above, you added a few words, which changed the tone incredibly. This may be what you meant, but not what your original post sounded like to me. What I remember the post stating is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbaker6953
I hope Mr. Barr will correct me if I am wrong, but It seems he will not share that information unless you pay for it. http://www.barrreport.com/forums/sho...09&postcount=4
It was a short post. Nothing was mentioned about the payment was in the form of a subscription to his site, and unless one is subscribed I am not sure that link will go anywhere.

Edit: I am not trying to defend Tom in any way. I think some of his recent posts both here and on his site have been frustrating. My feeling is if you have something to say say it. I get annoyed by the "I know something, but might tell you later" posts, but think it is funny the level of suspense he generates. I also think the mods could handle deletions or editing of posts differently, but if we are going to discuss it, lets be honest about the issue.


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