EI, PMDD, dosage rates, oh my - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2005, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
jgc
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EI, PMDD, dosage rates, oh my

Iím confused. So vary, vary confused.

Decided to go with a sponsor on my fertís. PMDD from Greg is on the way. Yes it is lazy, yes it is not optimal. But it was a place to start.

Ok here is the dilemma. Per EI , no3 uptake is 1-4ppm daily.

Per the krib, a good starting dose on my 58 gallon tank would be1/12 ml to 1/6 ml per 10 gallons (tank size I think) Ė ok on the top side of that, 1 ml per day.

Per another site http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_p...osage_calc.htm assuming I have about 40 gallons of water (net of substrate etcÖ) 1 ml of solution will only change my nitrates by .14ppm (and they target 5ppm).

Ok, assuming dosing daily, total weekly dose(with no absorption) would be about 1 ppm, with a maximium acculuation of 2ppm (roughly, assuming 50% water changes). My actual changes are closer to 40% - so it would max out a bit more than that Ė assuming no absorption.

So my confusion where did I go wrong in theses calculations. They are too incosistant with each other. Does anyone do pmdd, and at what rate? Has anyone looked at this to tell me why my math bites?

Help.

58 gallon tank
250 watt hqi
will be adding diy co2, might pressurise latter
light/moderate planting, but will fill in quickly I hope (have maybe 20 plants, but lawn (chain swords), wisteria and val needs to fill in some. It will become heavily planted I hope.

Oh, guess I should mention that I used to homebrew, and plan on doing some in the future. I wanted to do diy co2 for astetic reason, really did not want to put my 20lb co2 tank in the living room- although have less problem putting the 5 gallon carboy bubbling into the aquarium. (currently have two batches of wine about ready to bottle, so will be doing beer shortly).

aquarium had some alge issues before the light came on, but they went away for a bit. Got the tank fairly planted this weekend, but the alge is back with a vengence. My bet was lack of co2 is limiting the plants, but recognize they are also starving for nutrients as well.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2005, 08:59 PM
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With an HQI pendent and DIY co2 I really see trouble forthcoming (as in algae woes).

I would really hold off if possible on going all out on a planted tank like this until you get pressurized. It will make life much easier in the long run.

There are several keys to success...and CO2 is probably one of the most essential ingredients, other than planting very heavily from the beginning with high-light setups.

As far as dosing, just do the EI method...forget about pmdd and all that crap. Dose your ferts dry (as far as potassium nitrate and monopotassium phosphate). The plantex you'll need to dissolve 2 TABLEspoons per 500 ml of distilled water (or do as I and 1 TBS in 250 ml of water).

With that high lighting I would do the following:

Day 1 water change: 1/2 teaspoon KNO3 1/8 (or less) of KH2PO4
Day 2: 15 mL of plantex
Day 3: repeat day 1 dose
Day 4: repeat day 2
Day 5: repeat days 1 and 3
Day 6: nothing

You can adjust your dosage accordingly with the types of plants you have, your tap water, etc. This is just a general idea of how it works. Really simple!!

Re-boot!
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2005, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgc
Iím confused. So vary, vary confused.
You need more plants, as many as you can add in there.

If you can affiord MH's etc, you can afford nice as CO2 system, they run about 100$ or so total.

I can get gas tanks for about 50$ locally.
A 10 lb tank would last 3-4 years or so between refills.

Tank -40-140$
Reactor-DIY- 3-15$
Solenoid(optional)- with reg or 20-40$
Needle valve- 10-40$

you have 5 w/gal of high powered MH, you need a similar CO2 matched system , other wise you will have more algae that you can shake a stick at.

Do not bee cheap with CO2 nor adding enough plants from day one.

Otherwise you will learn all about the algae, very well I might add.

You need to test you KH and GH as well(you might need to add something for more GH).

GD gave you good advice.
Follow it.

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2005, 10:27 PM
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The problem is you are looking at a paper at The Krib that has a date of 1997. EI is NEW! Forget what you read at The Krib. The whole idea behind the PMDD formula was to prevent algae growth by limiting at least one nutrient.


The idea behind EI is to give the plants enough nutrients to outgrow the algae.

For 40 gallons of water you need to add 1 gram of KNO3 to raise the NO3 levels by 4.06 ppm.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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I spend way too much time reading and trying to comprehend sometimes. Or worse, trying to figure out how to use what I already have.

Currently have three vals, a small sword, 2 larger narrow leaf chain swords - with 6+ babies, two 4 inch clumps of baby tears, 3 or 4 pieces of wisteria, and probably 5 other plants here or there. With the exception of the left side of the aquarium, there are no large open spaces - nothing more than 2 inches or so. I can densely pack the left side with some weeds (hydrilla) this weekend till the rest of the tank fills in - the weeds should be a decent nutrient sink. Can put the pressurized co2 on as soon as the disfusser comes in. Light died yesterday, so am growing algee anyway till I get a new bulb in.

here are two questions from the cb (the cheep b, the been counter, the accountant, etc...). Read that kno3 is saltpeter. Ok, I make my own sausage - that is a grocery store preservative. Has any just gotten some from the spice rack? (ok, my grocery store deals with idiots like me who do home preserving, ymmv). Ė stump remover will probably be cheaper though.

Read other fert post from 5/24/05 mentioning k2so4, basically it was the heaviest used, but have not seen it on this post, did I miss something.

Playing with numbers to see if I can incorporate the pmdd premix into ei dosage levels. Am I crazy and planning to poison my fish? Suspect I would need to supplement the kno3 to keep from overdosing everything else. Any help here would be appreciated.

Finally, see the day 1,3,5 kno3 dosage. Do not see a heavy dose with water change. Am I supposed to do an additional dose of kno3 with the 50% change?

Thanks for being patient and kind so far. I have read on other posts that if you canít figure this stuff out, I have no business with a planted aquarium. At times I have been very tempted to agree.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 02:40 PM
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Tom,

How do you get 3-4 years between refills on a 10 lb CO2 tank?
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgc
I spend way too much time reading and trying to comprehend sometimes. Or worse, trying to figure out how to use what I already have.

Currently have three vals, a small sword, 2 larger narrow leaf chain swords - with 6+ babies, two 4 inch clumps of baby tears, 3 or 4 pieces of wisteria, and probably 5 other plants here or there. With the exception of the left side of the aquarium, there are no large open spaces - nothing more than 2 inches or so. I can densely pack the left side with some weeds (hydrilla) this weekend till the rest of the tank fills in - the weeds should be a decent nutrient sink. Can put the pressurized co2 on as soon as the disfusser comes in. Light died yesterday, so am growing algee anyway till I get a new bulb in.

here are two questions from the cb (the cheep b, the been counter, the accountant, etc...). Read that kno3 is saltpeter. Ok, I make my own sausage - that is a grocery store preservative. Has any just gotten some from the spice rack? (ok, my grocery store deals with idiots like me who do home preserving, ymmv). Ė stump remover will probably be cheaper though.

Read other fert post from 5/24/05 mentioning k2so4, basically it was the heaviest used, but have not seen it on this post, did I miss something.

Playing with numbers to see if I can incorporate the pmdd premix into ei dosage levels. Am I crazy and planning to poison my fish? Suspect I would need to supplement the kno3 to keep from overdosing everything else. Any help here would be appreciated.

Finally, see the day 1,3,5 kno3 dosage. Do not see a heavy dose with water change. Am I supposed to do an additional dose of kno3 with the 50% change?

Thanks for being patient and kind so far. I have read on other posts that if you canít figure this stuff out, I have no business with a planted aquarium. At times I have been very tempted to agree.

Stump remover should work fine...but I'm not sure about the dosage...if its pure potassium nitrate then go ahead and dose 1/2 teaspoon each dose.

As far as potassium sulfate, its already in the PMDD premix so no need to tinker with that. Use the premix on your "micro" dosing days (day 2 and 4).

You don't need a heavy dose on the water change day...that's why this is a simple way to dose ferts...the every-other-day addition of macros and micros will keep the fert levels in excess in the tank allowing for the plants to utiilize them rather than being hungry for nutrients.

Finally, I believe you're thinking too much Have fun with this hobby!!!

Re-boot!
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Grigg
Tom,

How do you get 3-4 years between refills on a 10 lb CO2 tank?
For a 58 gal tank, I refill a 10lb tank on 160 gal worth of tank with lots of individual tank lines and no solenoid every 1-1.5 years.
So 3x that...........

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 06:34 PM
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You are doing better than I am then Tom. I have a 20 lb tank running my 29 and 55 gallon tanks and I get around a year. Of course I do have some CO2 loss due to filtration on both those tanks.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 11:11 PM
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I get 5-6 months out of a 20lb tank on a 350 gal tank with large wet/dry etc

Need better diffusion method or there is a leak somewheres........

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2005, 11:20 PM
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You are also doing much better than I am, Tom. I only get 3 month out of 10lb over 100gallon with wet/dry(did not seal the sump).


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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-2005, 04:03 AM
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You can likely improve it.

Regards,
Tom Barr



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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-2005, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain
You can likely improve it.

Regards,
Tom Barr
I cut my CO2 usage in about half on my 180 gallon tank when I switched to an internal Venturi reactor based on Tom's Venturi design ...

I think there is a LOT to how efficient the reactor is ...

Greg


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