Clowns and E. I. - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 01:51 AM Thread Starter
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Clowns and E. I.

So here is my last (out of 6) clowns last night. I don't think he will make it to another day.
I think the weekly 50-60% water change tripped my Ich outbreak. I treated with coppersafe, and that cost the first three. Two jumped out, one died later, and two more in sucession.
That left me with this guy, but he is COMPLETELY covered, and acting strange.

So, the root of the matter: Do you guys do weekly 50% changes and not bother the clowns? They are so sensitive that it seems like a challange.

I always make sure the water is the same temp, add dechlor, but the water does smell "bleachy".
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Peter

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 01:56 AM
 
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None of my fish including the clowns ever have a problem with a 50% water change. Are these clowns new to this tank? They may already have been stressed before the water change.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 01:58 AM
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You know I have only had one problem with my my three when I introduced some new fish they got ich. Other than that they have been through weekly water changes and moved to differant tanks several times without a hitch. Wish I could help more, is there something else that is stressing them out?

Currently tankless for the first time in 24 years... Getting the itch again
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 02:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantplantsnotwork
but the water does smell "bleachy".
Are you sure you're adding the correct amount of dechlor? The usual 1Tsp or capful per 10 gallons isn't necessarily correct, it's just a starting point. Most treatments will say "removes X amount of chlorine/chloramines per dose." Most people don't know their chlorine content in their tap. I personally have to use 3x the amount for my water. You may want to look into this.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 03:46 AM
 
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I havent had any problems with my 3 clowns with weekly 50% WC's. I just put straight tap water in. Just dose to reset the tank. No dechlors or anything.

How long ago did you put the coppersafe in? Looks like that would be the culpprit considerin you lost most of them after doin so. I have read if you are going to put chemicals in the tank cut the usual dosage in half if there are clowns in the tank. Not havin scales makes em pretty fragile to this sort a stuff.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 04:15 AM
 
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I keep my temp at 82 dir. My plants don't seem to mind, fish don't care ether and ich can't reproduce at that temp. If you can find it, get some Aquarisol (spelling?) increase your temps and hope for the best. Aquarisol won't hurt plants but I can't find it anywere now a days.

Good luck,

Pharo
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 04:42 AM
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PLease tell us more about the water parameters than than that you change it.

In particular the temp, pH, hardness, NH3, NO2 amounts. Then if you can tell us what declor and how much in how many gallons.

Obviously your plants are growing well, so you are doing something right.

I have a 75gal tank (60 actual) and have 5 clowns that 1 year ago were barely 2" now all are 3-4", the dominant 2 are around 5". The tank is at 84deg, 5kH, 9 gH, no NH3, some NO2 (detectable but below the 0.3 ppm mark) When I do a weekly water change I add 1 tablespoon of Amquel and add with a temp matched phyton feed straight from my kitchen sink and add 1 tablespoon of Seachem equilibrium and 5 ml Kent Freshwater Essentials to make up for the really thin soft water we have here.
Mine eat spectrum tabs, CBW, frozen bloodworms and zuccini and some squash.


There are a few diseases specific to clowns that ones they get treating is really ineffective. Skinny disease in particular. You can read about it at www.loaches.com. I have not had ich in this tank but in my cardinals tank I used Mardel Maracide and raised temp up to 86 for about 2 weeks to accelerate removal. You need to use it at half strength for loaches. I had 3 yo-yo loaches in the tank that got it and were treated fine. The life cycle of this ich makes it only removable when it is on fish or free swimming. When it is in gravel in cysts it cannot be treated, that is why folks increase temp to speed up teh 21 day (?) lifecycle. Sorry if you already know all this.

Michael
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 08:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bastalker
... I have read if you are going to put chemicals in the tank cut the usual dosage in half if there are clowns in the tank. Not havin scales makes em pretty fragile to this sort a stuff.

I bought a pair of clown loaches to hoover the bottomof my tank, but I dont think I would have bought them if I knew they were exta sensitive. They are in a tank with discus. Will they be okay in a tank that has a Ph of about 6.5? I sure hope so.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 02:02 PM
 
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It's been a while but I remember reading somewhere that clown loaches are sensitive to copper. Something about scaleless fish (clown loaches don't have scales) are much more sensitive to certain medications. I cant remember which medications though.

Marcel
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 08:22 PM
 
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Do not believe that Ich cannot survive at temps above 82 or that 1/2 dose of coppersafe will kill Ich. There are resistant strains of Ich out there.

I am just finishing up a battle against Ich in a planted quarantine tank

the Ich came from the dealer's discus tank (84deg)

I used 1/2 dose of coppersafe and raised temp above 90 for over two weeks with no impact to the Ich.

finally kicked it with 5TBSP salt (tank contains ~6g water) and a polishing filter (Hagen quick filter).
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 11:17 PM
 
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Copper based meds and cloan loaches do NOT mix...
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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Laith, the hard experinance being the teacher, I have to agree.

My assumption that the clown would not make it through the night was indeed true. Total death toll: 6 clowns, one yoyo. Another yoyo and and Kuli are M.I.A. The tank is densly planted, and I have to go on a search mission.

I wish I did not treat with copper. I should have let nature take it's course.

When I googled clowns/loachs/copper, it was 50/50, especially on the loach sites. Many testified that coppersafe worked great with the their loachs. There were a few that stated NO.

I am here to state, don't do it. Not only that, but the copper started to melt a few of the plants also.

All that being said, Loach's are / were my favorite fish in the tank, and are missed. Worse, I don't feel like getting more due to my apparent inability to husband them in a planted tank.

Water Parameters:
KH:7
PH: 6.8-.9
Temp: Normal 78, upped to 80. May just leave it there.
GW ferts, flourish. Keep the NO3 at about 15, PO4 about 1.5
90 gallon/ 240 watt

When I do a water change I use a homemade python, and the (digital temp in tank) temp. does not change by much more than a degree. I add about 20 ml of Aquarium Pharmaceuticals 'super strentgh' Tap Water Conditioner. This should be more than enough to take care of the chlorine in the water by a double margin. We do not have Chlorimines here, and I just checked the water board web site to double check.

Alas, I think it was the stress of water changes that did them in. I did notice a spot of Ich on one of my rams, but they have since not been infected. The other fish are all doing fine, angels, bushy nose's, and (DAMN THEM!) the 6! CAE's that I mistakenly thought were otto's. If they just stacked themselves up in a corner and died, well, that'd be cool.

I lost the first three loach's the first night after H20 change and first dose of Coppersafe. Two of those three actualy jumped out of the tank, and that's with a full oak canopy. Came down in the morning, and the whole tank was gasping for air. I have an airpump w/stone that turned on twice a night to help suppliment the O2. The CO2 controller stays on 24/7, but oddly, I do not see a 'purging' of the CO2 when the airpump turns on. After that first night, I set up the air to turn continiously on when the lights went out. The lights are on an 11 hour photoperiod.

Peter

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 06:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubenstein
I bought a pair of clown loaches to hoover the bottomof my tank, but I dont think I would have bought them if I knew they were exta sensitive. They are in a tank with discus. Will they be okay in a tank that has a Ph of about 6.5? I sure hope so.
My PH is 6.4 an they are doin great. I wouldn't say they are sensitive or hard to keep at all. They just dont like full doses of medications.

Last edited by bastalker; 03-09-2005 at 02:20 PM.
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-09-2005, 09:39 AM
 
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It's puzzling that everything happened after a wc... and fish actually trying to get out of the water by jumping out is usually a sign of a serious water problem.

Two things I can think of and they may be interlinked. Your tap water conditioner didn't remove any chlorine (old/bad?) and the chlorine decimated your bacteria population causing a big spike in Ammonia...

I've heard of fish jumping out of water because of elevated NH3/4 levels.

Check your ammonia levels?
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