I am the only one switching to easy green? - Page 6 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #76 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:29 AM
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Ok last 1,

This is my no tech no fertiliser other than fish poo and mulum 6 footer, Again I never vacuum the substrate and only change 50% of the water once a week.

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post #77 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:38 AM
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Geez Im in truoble as I hardly do any of that,I feed my Betta I change 50% of the water once a week and sometimes clean the glass, I never vacuum the substrate and have no idea what the PAR, PUR ratings are.
Just because you don't know it, doesn't mean that you didn't get it right.
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post #78 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 04:12 AM
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Well I lied, haven't slept on it yet lol
@Greggz and @Deanna I too read it several times and agree, very well put. I believe @Greggz, @Asteroid, and @burr740. Obviously it is working very well for them. It just has not been my experience. I wish it was, but for one or all of the many reasons that have been stated here, my tanks are very picky about how they want their fertilizer dosed. I don't recall who, but someone said they front loaded all their macros at the beginning of the week, and then dosed micros throughout the rest of the week. Again, I am shocked. My tanks would revolt! I have much testing to do in the coming months... I'll be busy.



I love your tank man. Absolutely love it. Right up my ally. That purple cabomba all time fave. Very cool to see such a nice tank with such a lean schedule. Do you run really short photoperiods?
Wow-- just wow!
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post #79 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 02:01 PM
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Lol no... Probably not

Just looked up Limnophila sessiliflora. Says it looks a lot like cabomba but is much less demanding. Things are starting to come together. I am looking at your tank going, "how is his cabomba doing that without CO2!"

There is also limnophilia indica. All look very similar
I would love to grow Limnophila sessiliflora (in theory), but it's a federally listed noxious weed in the US. I kept seeing it in youtube videos in European tanks and loved the look, but I didn't see it for sale anywhere I normally buy plants online and I'm pretty sure this is why. Anyone selling it in the US *should not* be doing so - it's illegal and irresponsible. It's also listed specifically in my state.

Just a reminder - just like with fish, keep your tank trimmings out of your local waterways y'all, particularly if you are growing easier plants and are in a warmer state. Often the things that make them less demanding in an aquarium make them ferocious monsters in the environment.

Edited to add: if you are growing actual Limnophila sessiliflora in the US, I'm not going to tell on your or whatever. Just be extra careful with trimmings and don't sell or give it away. If you have it in an outdoor application like a pond, you really ought to get rid of it safely though.
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Last edited by ElleDee; 05-21-2020 at 02:07 PM. Reason: added more
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post #80 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 02:19 PM
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I would love to grow Limnophila sessiliflora (in theory), but it's a federally listed noxious weed in the US. I kept seeing it in youtube videos in European tanks and loved the look, but I didn't see it for sale anywhere I normally buy plants online and I'm pretty sure this is why. Anyone selling it in the US *should not* be doing so - it's illegal and irresponsible. It's also listed specifically in my state.

Just a reminder - just like with fish, keep your tank trimmings out of your local waterways y'all, particularly if you are growing easier plants and are in a warmer state. Often the things that make them less demanding in an aquarium make them ferocious monsters in the environment.

Edited to add: if you are growing actual Limnophila sessiliflora in the US, I'm not going to tell on your or whatever. Just be extra careful with trimmings and don't sell or give it away. If you have it in an outdoor application like a pond, you really ought to get rid of it safely though.
Your correct it is federally banned. Believe it or not, it's still being sold on ebay and by U.S. sellers. Any plant like L. sessiliflora and H. polysperma are incredibly non-demanding thus the outrageous growth in many environments. Even Cabomba is banned in many states.
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post #81 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 02:59 PM
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Your correct it is federally banned. Believe it or not, it's still being sold on ebay and by U.S. sellers. Any plant like L. sessiliflora and H. polysperma are incredibly non-demanding thus the outrageous growth in many environments. Even Cabomba is banned in many states.
I wish I was surprised, but I'm not. I don't expect retailers to keep up with noxious weed lists in other states, but violating the federal list gets you some serious bad karma. If an individual has a noxious weed in a glass box in their house they can be responsible about containing it, but if you are shipping it to strangers there's no telling what they are going to do.
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post #82 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...l#post11342549

I tagged some people but couldn't get everyone, just started this tank journal so check it out for some more context.
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post #83 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 06:58 PM
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@Greggz and @Asteroid I am beginning to understand your point. If you are telling me that your tanks are constantly running in excess of all the nutrients, meaning algae constantly has all the ferts it could want to bloom and it isn't...

This was an interesting thread to me before but now it just went to another level.
I guess that depends on what you consider excess. I have run levels of ferts that might make you faint. But again, I have to point out that is in the context of a very high light CO2 injected tank.

I can tell you this for certain. I can walk over to my tank right now and dump in another 5 ppm PO4 without hesitation. The ratio will be different, but I guarantee you no algae bloom. I know because I have done it many, many times. If I notice a leading indicator like Pantanal is droopy, I am not shy about boosting things quickly.



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I would be shocked, along with what I think is the majority of the hobby, to find out that constant ferts in excess doesn't lead to algae. On the one hand I would be very happy because my life just got a lot easier but on the other hand I would be sad because of all the wasted time toiling over ratios and dosing.

Can you clarify that I am understanding you correctly? Constant macros and micros in excess do not cause algae? (In this scenario we are assuming ample CO2)
I guess that depends on who you follow in the hobby. I follow many world class plant growers, and I would say the notion that excess ferts causes algae is pretty much a thing of the past. Like I said, I have dosed some levels that would make your head spin!

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If that is truly the case, I have a lot of testing to do and am indeed incorrect about fert ratios making any difference at all. I am not yet fully convinced as I am a see it to believe it type, but if that is what you are telling me, I will give it a try.

If this is in fact the case what is the point of the tabletop experiment you are doing in the link? Why not continue to use spoons and dose extra?

If this is the case, then in a grow tank without fish, why change water at all? Why not just top of with RO? Why not do fewer water changes and just add heavy mechanical filtration to keep down organics?
Fert ratios are a tricky thing. I don't believe there is some magic ratio that will make everything perfect. Heck, even individual plants have individual needs that vary. So the trick is pleasing as many as you can at one time.

I do believe the elements interact with each other and there are positive and negative associations. Many times we have discussed the following chart...............



But I look at these as broad based relationships. That is you don't want things in terrible excess in one direction or the other. But in reasonable amounts there is wide latitude as to what will work.

As to my tsp experiment, I do like to know what I am dosing into my tank. And once you get to a certain point, you begin to fine tune things to bring out the best in the most species. My dosing is not straight EI, but I guess you could say is based on EI. So I do like tweaking things here and there to see the effect on the tank in general, and sometimes on just an individual plant.

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I don't recall who, but someone said they front loaded all their macros at the beginning of the week, and then dosed micros throughout the rest of the week. Again, I am shocked. My tanks would revolt! I have much testing to do in the coming months... I'll be busy.
That be me!

Front load macros daily dose micros for several years now.

Tank is better than ever.

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But at the same time, if excess nutrients don't cause algae how come low CO2 causes BBA? The plants are still growing, just slower and the same excess nutrients are in the water...?
BBA is one topic that has been debated to death, and there are loads of opinions out there on what causes it.

IMO, it is not caused by low CO2. Low CO2 is surely a factor, but it is usually in combination with too much organic waste (#1 contributor), too much/too little light, too much/too little flow, and sometimes too low of dosing (unhappy starving plants).

It really requires a holistic approach and knowing everything about a tank that you possibly can, as it can be a combination of different triggers.

But again, it's a long topic and you will find loads of passionate threads here and elsewhere devoted to it.


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Last edited by Greggz; 05-21-2020 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo
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post #84 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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@Greggz thanks for the education and healthy discussion. Like I said before I will happily be corrected in the face of new evidence. I will try one of my tanks on your routine and see how it goes and let you know!

I still am not sure it will work for my type of tank keeping. I generally avoid high CO2 and fast growing stems because it requires a lot of maintenance, so the testing will definitely be revealing. I'll dedicate a tank to it and make sure to keep organics down. I don't have any plants that demand high CO2 right now so it won't be in the same context as yours but I am excited to see what happens!
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post #85 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 07:21 PM
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@Greggz thanks for the education
Ha....remember you get what you pay for!

I'm only relating things that I have observed in my own tanks. And if you read enough of my posts, you'll see they often come with a disclaimer "Your mileage may vary".

If you've got a method that works, that is all that really matters.

And yes, I have enjoyed the discussion as well. I think you will find there are many here who have a lot of experience and much to add.
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post #86 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 02:37 AM Thread Starter
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Well, I started doing some more research and found something very interesting. I started looking at some of the fertilization routines of the world class aquarists as was suggested to me @Greggz) and I came across this video by Felipe Oliveira. He is obviously a well respected well established influencer in the hobby.


In this video, it seems to me that he pretty unequivocally states that excess ferts cause algae and makes many of the exact same points I was trying to make. I realize this could come across as confirmation bias, and many of you can probably also pull references backing up your own points (if you can please do).

It just makes me feel better to have someone as prominent as him confirm my past experiences. Like I said before, I was beginning to question everything I ever knew about growing aquatic plants. To me, this video is evidence that I am not going crazy, and many of the points I was trying to make are quite valid, at least in the context of the right tank. I think many of you who were disagreeing with the fundamentals behind my argument, are growing a lot of fast growing water column feeders.

I am curious if this video makes any of you think differently about my previous points? If you have time, I would love to hear your thoughts @Greggz @Asteroid @burr740 @Deanna ect...

P.S. Let me know if you want me to stop tagging you in these posts. Not yet sure of proper etiquette on this forum.
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post #87 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 07:14 AM
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Ive seen that video. Yes he's a well respected plant grower and obviously knows a lot about things. But...that video is basically a plug for Seachem fertilizer. I have no problem with that, its just how these things work.

But its important to understand that for every "respected"opinion that says too much ferts cause algae, there are just as many respected people who think they dont.

Here's my opinion. Primarily there are two things that cause algae: Unhappy plants and dirty conditions.

Anything that makes plants stall or stop growing nice will cause algae. Healthy thriving plants just do not get it. The aquarium might get it, hardscape, substrate or the front glass, but a happy plant, or a happy leaf will never have algae.

OD'ing ferts, especially micros can definitely make plants unhappy. In that regard yes, too much ferts cause algae. Too little ferts will also do it, not enough co2, not enough light - anything that the plants dont like is going to result in algae on said plants, and other places too if there is plant tissue degrading.

Dirty conditions is the other main cause of algae, especially in a fast moving high light tank. Mulm lying around, dirty filters, insufficient water changes. All that stuff feeds algae. It also directly affects plant growth.

Water changes for example are about more than removing ferts. It removes a lot of invisible dissolved organic waste that otherwise would feed algae and interfere with plant growth. This too is more pronounced in a fast moving high light set up. Its important to keep that kind of tank extremely clean.

So...regardless of how you frame it, it all comes back to those two things

Feel free btw to tag me anytime. I dont do a whole lot of reading these days and probably wouldnt see a thread or post otherwise


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post #88 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 07:31 AM
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@Xiaozhuang had a pretty good article on advancedplantedtank.com about nutrient tunnel vision. I'm convinced, with all the successful fertilization strategies from Filipe Oliveira to EI to the Rotala Kill Tanks, that fertilization really doesn't matter too much. I just saw on the low-tech planted tanks Facebook page some guy that was growing plants beautifully using chopped up banana and potato peels as fertilizer. CO2, light, and plant husbandry seem to be more important than ferts.

Also this was about 40 posts ago but I didn't find any precipitate in my DIY liquid fert mixture!

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post #89 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 10:26 AM
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Exactly, ratios and balancing them into your tanks needs/uptake are only parameters that matter.
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post #90 of 112 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 12:31 PM
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@HerpsAndHerbs

As pointed out Filipe Oliveira is a very well respected aquascaper. I credit him with making the moss tree extremely popular. It was ground breaking at the time as he took 10th place in IAPLC in 2007 with his Syrah aquascape that was only 15 gallons. All other high-ranking tanks are much larger. I can assure you he wasn't using Seachem at the time. Not that there's anything wrong with Seachem (I use plenty of their products), but there is that $ thing.

If you haven't seen it, I think you might enjoy this video from Green Aqua. Green Aqua is a major influencer, Aquascape Gallery/Shop Owner and ADA distributor. This guy Balazs Farkas has a good sense of humor and takes some of the seriousness out of it and he's not selling any specific product. In this video he gets to the whole ammonia/organic algae connection.


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...
Dirty conditions is the other main cause of algae, especially in a fast moving high light tank. Mulm lying around, dirty filters, insufficient water changes. All that stuff feeds algae. It also directly affects plant growth.

Water changes for example are about more than removing ferts. It removes a lot of invisible dissolved organic waste that otherwise would feed algae and interfere with plant growth. This too is more pronounced in a fast moving high light set up. Its important to keep that kind of tank extremely clean.
...
The above quote from @burr740 pretty much gets to the heart of it for me. Good maintenance trumps all, and gives you more wiggle room with lights, ferts and other variables that might not be ideal. It's probably the major reason you could setup two identical tanks and give them to two different people and get completely different results and success. It's also a large reason influencers have so much success. They're more dedicated and spend more time doing the "little things" like removing dead/dying leaves, food, keeping co2 constant, religious water changes, etc that will cause algae.
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