I am the only one switching to easy green? - Page 5 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #61 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HerpsAndHerbs View Post
I will happily be corrected if I am, just not sure I understand what you are trying to explain. Why would an imbalance not occur faster in this situation?
Can you elaborate a little more on the imbalance and what you think the issue would be.
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post #62 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 11:18 PM
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Because powders are 100% concentrated, and AIO are dilute, the rate of error is very different.
I have a question, and this is not an argument. I'm truly curious.

If one makes a solution, how is that different than buying a solution?

If a solution you make adds lets say NO3:PO4:K at 5:1:5 per dose, and a commercial solution adds 5:1:5 per dose, what makes them different? They add dry salts just like you do.

I would argue that a small error in the amount and timing of water changes has a much larger effect (accumulation) than a gram scale error when making a solution. For instance, if you change 40% instead of 50% of your water, total accumulation down the road increases by about 25%. Skip a water change or two and the same thing, your accumulation will be considerable higher.

Just saying in the scheme of things there are lots of other things that can affect actual levels in an aquarium. IMO, a gram scale error is little to worry about.

Now if one if using tsp measurements, well those can vary by a very wide margin. I did a kitchen table experiment on this a long while back and it was pretty interesting.

This is the kind of science you get around here...........
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...l#post11162589
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post #63 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Can you elaborate a little more on the imbalance and what you think the issue would be.
There are many different types of algae and they are caused by a great many things, but in this example an imbalance would consist of too much or too little of a given nutrient.

IME common examples of this would be too much or too little of phosphate, potassium, and iron. IME nitrate alone in excess does not lead to algae.
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post #64 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HerpsAndHerbs View Post
Let make an example. If algae results at 5ppm of imbalance
What exactly is a 5% imbalance?

If it's what I think it is, then I am not too sure about your premise. At least it is something that I have never seen.

I have used loads of different schemes in both low tech and high tech tanks for decades. I would guess I have "imbalances" well over 5%. But I have never once seen an algae outbreak from a slight change in ferts. In fact, as far as algae outbreaks go, IMO fert dosing is very rarely the cause (except for under dosing) except in extreme circumstances. There are loads of reasons for an algae outbreak, but minor changes in dosing is not one of them.

Is this something you have observed? Do you think it is repeatable? I'd like to hear more.
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post #65 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-20-2020, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HerpsAndHerbs View Post
There are many different types of algae and they are caused by a great many things, but in this example an imbalance would consist of too much or too little of a given nutrient.

IME common examples of this would be too much or too little of phosphate, potassium, and iron. IME nitrate alone in excess does not lead to algae.
Well @Greggz already answered this. I realize there is a certain mind set / culture that believes that dosed ferts cause algae, it just doesn't appear to be true or very realistic to me. I personally have been running between 40-80 ppm of no3 and 2-5 ppm of P for over a year now in my signature tank and if I told you how clean the plants are and how healthy the fish are it would sound like bragging. Tom Barr (EI inventor) doesn't believe this either nor do many established influencers in the hobby.

You might ask why do I keep it that high? Mostly because I don't test on a regular basis so I always just dose full EI because I don't want to run out of something. Once you run out and the plant shows deficiency you've already started the process of spores becoming algae because ammonia is being produced by the "sick" leaves. One reason EI is so popular is that testing is "optional" for many setups. It is an Estimative Index an being off by 5, 10, 15% doesn't account for any real issues.
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post #66 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 12:55 AM
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Regardless of how dead the horse is, continue beating it until you find another.
Better to just leave it.
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post #67 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
I have a question, and this is not an argument. I'm truly curious.

If one makes a solution, how is that different than buying a solution?

If a solution you make adds lets say NO3:PO4:K at 5:1:5 per dose, and a commercial solution adds 5:1:5 per dose, what makes them different? They add dry salts just like you do.

I would argue that a small error in the amount and timing of water changes has a much larger effect (accumulation) than a gram scale error when making a solution. For instance, if you change 40% instead of 50% of your water, total accumulation down the road increases by about 25%. Skip a water change or two and the same thing, your accumulation will be considerable higher.

Just saying in the scheme of things there are lots of other things that can affect actual levels in an aquarium. IMO, a gram scale error is little to worry about.

Now if one if using tsp measurements, well those can vary by a very wide margin. I did a kitchen table experiment on this a long while back and it was pretty interesting.

This is the kind of science you get around here...........
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...l#post11162589
If you are making your own solutions from powder using a scale and then using that solution to dose in the case of the macros you mentioned, IMO there is no difference at all.

I will, however, indulge myself and play devil's advocate.

Each time you mix up and dissolve your solution you have the variability of the weight and the amount of water you are dissolving it in (again assuming you are not using spoons which many people do). One batch may be slightly more concentrated or slightly less concentrated than another. If you make up 6 months worth of solution that error will be the same and have very small impact. If you make a weeks worth of solution that error will be the same and have a larger impact. In practical application I don't think you would notice this at all but it is still definitely happening. Companies making very large scale batches will experience this in such small degrees you wouldn't be able to detect it. The variability of how much of the stock solution you are dosing would be the same whether it is home made or store bought if you make it at the same concentration. If you make your macro solution at a higher concentration (which many people do) now you have a similar variability but in a much smaller volume. For example, 1mL of homemade solution will be much more variable than 10mL of seachem NPK in the context of repeated day to day dosing assuming the same variability per measurement (like using the same graduated cylinder or measuring cup).

Also, I have never heard of anyone chelating their own metals at home, so if you want to mix your own AIO stock solution you will get the afore mentioned precipitation and consequent reduction in its effectiveness. As mentioned before I don't know how much less effective it is but it is still definitely happening.

Also many people (as they have mentioned on this thread) just add the powder straight to the aquarium per dose, resulting in the highest amount of variability.

In summary, the worst case scenario (speaking in terms of variability) for powders is that you are using spoons to do your daily dose straight into the aquarium. Tons of variability, totally different than using commercially bought liquids. In the case of using a gram scale to make a stock solution at a low concentration separating macros and micros, absolutely no difference at all (except for $$).

Ok, now that I am done playing devil's advocate I will say:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not calling anyone's dosing regimen wrong. That would be quite an arrogant and foolish thing to say. I merely am trying to describe the efforts I make to dial my set up in so that I do not run into issues because of my necessarily irregular water change and maintenance schedule!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Greggz and @Asteroid I am beginning to understand your point. If you are telling me that your tanks are constantly running in excess of all the nutrients, meaning algae constantly has all the ferts it could want to bloom and it isn't...

This was an interesting thread to me before but now it just went to another level.

I would be shocked, along with what I think is the majority of the hobby, to find out that constant ferts in excess doesn't lead to algae. On the one hand I would be very happy because my life just got a lot easier but on the other hand I would be sad because of all the wasted time toiling over ratios and dosing.

Can you clarify that I am understanding you correctly? Constant macros and micros in excess do not cause algae? (In this scenario we are assuming ample CO2)

I do feel like that would only be the case if you have plenty of CO2 for the plants to use. If you are running a low/lower tech setup then carbon would be the rate limiting factor and you would then need to rebalance and then ratios would come back into play, right? But at the same time, if excess nutrients don't cause algae how come low CO2 causes BBA? The plants are still growing, just slower and the same excess nutrients are in the water...?

If that is truly the case, I have a lot of testing to do and am indeed incorrect about fert ratios making any difference at all. I am not yet fully convinced as I am a see it to believe it type, but if that is what you are telling me, I will give it a try.

If this is in fact the case what is the point of the tabletop experiment you are doing in the link? Why not continue to use spoons and dose extra?

If this is the case, then in a grow tank without fish, why change water at all? Why not just top of with RO? Why not do fewer water changes and just add heavy mechanical filtration to keep down organics?

I need to sleep on this because I am currently beginning to question everything I have ever known about growing aquatic plants.

Lastly I realize I probably didn't make one thing clear. My efforts in trying to precisely dial in nutrient levels and ratios were, in theory, in order to not leave anything left for the algae to capitalize on.
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Last edited by HerpsAndHerbs; 05-21-2020 at 01:32 AM. Reason: Small edit
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post #68 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 01:33 AM
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It seems to me that if you 1) get the light right (PAR, PUR and photoperiod(s)) for 2) a given CO2 level (anywhere between 2ppp and 40ppm), 3) practice good plant husbandry, 4) provide good circulation (all parts of all plants moving and good gas exchange) and 5) develop good cleaning habits (filter, tank and water changes), the very forgiving nature (adaptability) of most plants makes it almost difficult to screw them up via fertilizer or, conversely, it makes it much easier to see fertilizer issues.

Now, if I could only practice what I preach …but then it wouldn’t fun.
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post #69 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 02:37 AM
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It seems to me that if you 1) get the light right (PAR, PUR and photoperiod(s)) for 2) a given CO2 level (anywhere between 2ppp and 40ppm), 3) practice good plant husbandry, 4) provide good circulation (all parts of all plants moving and good gas exchange) and 5) develop good cleaning habits (filter, tank and water changes), the very forgiving nature (adaptability) of most plants makes it almost difficult to screw them up via fertilizer or, conversely, it makes it much easier to see fertilizer issues.

Now, if I could only practice what I preach …but then it wouldn’t fun.
+1.

Well said and I agree completely. In fact, read it several times over and it was very well put.

Manage a tank well, and you will get good results with a wide variety of dosing.

Manage a tank poorly, and there is no fert dosing that will save you.

In the end, think growing plants, not defeating algae. Healthy plants beat algae every time.


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post #70 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 02:50 AM
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I love Seachem flourish comprehensive and their root tabs, its all I use, I tried those just add water dry mixes all they ever did was grow algae.

A 100 milliliter bottle of Flourish comprehensive for the planted tank costs me $12 I use 1 milliliter 2 times a week, do the math.

Heres some photos, I do not use CO2 or Excel.






Quote:

It seems to me that if you 1) get the light right (PAR, PUR and photoperiod(s)) for 2) a given CO2 level (anywhere between 2ppp and 40ppm), 3) practice good plant husbandry, 4) provide good circulation (all parts of all plants moving and good gas exchange) and 5) develop good cleaning habits (filter, tank and water changes), the very forgiving nature (adaptability) of most plants makes it almost difficult to screw them up via fertilizer or, conversely, it makes it much easier to see fertilizer issues.
Geez Im in truoble as I hardly do any of that,I feed my Betta I change 50% of the water once a week and sometimes clean the glass, I never vacuum the substrate and have no idea what the PAR, PUR ratings are.
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post #71 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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Well I lied, haven't slept on it yet lol
@Greggz and @Deanna I too read it several times and agree, very well put. I believe @Greggz, @Asteroid, and @burr740. Obviously it is working very well for them. It just has not been my experience. I wish it was, but for one or all of the many reasons that have been stated here, my tanks are very picky about how they want their fertilizer dosed. I don't recall who, but someone said they front loaded all their macros at the beginning of the week, and then dosed micros throughout the rest of the week. Again, I am shocked. My tanks would revolt! I have much testing to do in the coming months... I'll be busy.

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I love Seachem flourish comprehensive and their root tabs, its all I use, I tried those just add water dry mixes all they ever did was grow algae.

A 100 milliliter bottle of Flourish comprehensive for the planted tank costs me $12 I use 1 milliliter 2 times a week, do the math.

Heres some photos, I do not use CO2 or Excel.



I love your tank man. Absolutely love it. Right up my ally. That purple cabomba all time fave. Very cool to see such a nice tank with such a lean schedule. Do you run really short photoperiods?
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post #72 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:09 AM
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I use a Beamworks viva grow LED and it runs 10 hours a day


Theres more here on this tank.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...i-add-co2.html


PS

That purple cabomba?

I got it at a chain pet store and it was marked Limnophila sessiliflora,
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post #73 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HairyNoseWombat View Post
I use a Beamworks viva grow LED and it runs 10 hours a day


Theres more here on this tank.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...i-add-co2.html


PS

That purple cabomba?

I got it at a chain pet store and it was marked Limnophila sessiliflora,
AGAIN. Mind blown. 10 hour lights on, no CO2, low ferts, and all those reds.

You're a wizard Hairy

Looks just like my purple cabomba! Get a second opinion but I feel pretty confident thats what it is
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post #74 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:21 AM
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Would 15 Seachem root tabs in there count as low ferts?
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post #75 of 113 (permalink) Old 05-21-2020, 03:23 AM Thread Starter
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Would 15 Seachem root tabs in there count as low ferts?
Lol no... Probably not

Just looked up Limnophila sessiliflora. Says it looks a lot like cabomba but is much less demanding. Things are starting to come together. I am looking at your tank going, "how is his cabomba doing that without CO2!"

There is also limnophilia indica. All look very similar
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