Help, nano walstad, PH keeps rising, Betta dying - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 01:45 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 84
Hi @Jok178,

At a second glance, you do have another option as long as you are consistent with water changes. You could tailor your water change water to the KH that you want (maybe 3?) then do a 20% one week, test KH, then right before water changes test kH to see the change. Then from there see how much it actually grows. Then do another larger water change (presumably it is closer to 3 this time). Repeat the process and by about a month you will have the KH you want.

You could go faster if you want.

The idea here is that you make the KH change in your tank from the water change so low but still negative that you will eventually drop your KH to your desired level.

It ultimately depends on what you want to do - dictate what conditions your tank has, or let your tank dictate what you do.

Josh
Tuister is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Darwin, Australia
Posts: 108
Thanks Josh,

It sound like this is the first and last time using Seiryu Stones, not worth the hassle.

I will try boosting KH/GH prior to the the next water change and measure what happens. I have some old boosters left over from my old high tech, the local aquatic plant farmer mixes them up.
GH booster:
6pt CACo3
7pt MgSo4
10pt K2So4

KH booster:
KHCo3

Is it worth trying to use peat moss to get the tanks equilibrium PH lower or will that just cause the rocks to keep raising water hardness?

Any tips on fixing the fishes swim bladder?
Jok178 is offline  
post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 09:46 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 84
Hi @Jok178,

Is that booster already mixed? If so, I think using it will run you into some more problems:
1) The CaCO3 will be a giant dust storm at your pH
2) The K2SO4 will add a tonne of potassium - compacted with your KH booster, you may have potassium affect the uptake of the rest of your nutrients - and you will see other deficiencies.

Is it worth trying to use peat moss to get the tanks equilibrium PH lower or will that just cause the rocks to keep raising water hardness?

Your potting mix should have peat moss in it. I'd say that if you want a lower pH, then you go with the second route I suggested - more water changes to reduce your KH to the desire then keep up with it. I suspect those beautiful tanks with the Seiryu stone (they are beautiful) keep up with it with pre-mixed water (I would go as far as saying RO so they mix to the desired TDS) and consistent water changes.

Gypsum (CaSO4) and Epsom Salt (MgSo4 7H2O) will help you get any bit of GHardness that you want in your water. Use this to get the amounts: https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php


The KH booster will give you ample potassium.

What are you thinking right now - do you want a lower pH or do you want to find the natural pH of the tank? That will help us here.

Josh


I will think about the swim bladder - but keep clean water and if you wate change for the betta make sure it is close to identical.

Bump: Hi @Jok178,

Is that booster already mixed? If so, I think using it will run you into some more problems:
1) The CaCO3 will be a giant dust storm at your pH
2) The K2SO4 will add a tonne of potassium - compacted with your KH booster, you may have potassium affect the uptake of the rest of your nutrients - and you will see other deficiencies.

Is it worth trying to use peat moss to get the tanks equilibrium PH lower or will that just cause the rocks to keep raising water hardness?

Your potting mix should have peat moss in it. I'd say that if you want a lower pH, then you go with the second route I suggested - more water changes to reduce your KH to the desire then keep up with it. I suspect those beautiful tanks with the Seiryu stone (they are beautiful) keep up with it with pre-mixed water (I would go as far as saying RO so they mix to the desired TDS) and consistent water changes.

Gypsum (CaSO4) and Epsom Salt (MgSo4 7H2O) will help you get any bit of GHardness that you want in your water. Use this to get the amounts: https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php


The KH booster will give you ample potassium.

What are you thinking right now - do you want a lower pH or do you want to find the natural pH of the tank? That will help us here.

Josh


I will think about the swim bladder - but keep clean water and if you water change for the betta make sure it is close to identical.
Tuister is online now  
 
post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 10:19 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
DaveKS's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 67212
Posts: 2,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
Gday Josh, thanks for that

The Betta has always been healthy and only got sick this once. It seemed to start one day after a water change, not sure if coincidence or not.

I don't provide any nutrients to the tank, just the potting mix under the gravel.

The snails are all too small to see those details on the shells, but they are multiplying very quickly of that helps. I haven't seen any extra shrimp molts, just one or 2 every so often, they also breed like rabbits.

So if I understand you correctly hardening the new water before changes will help stop the stones raising the PH?
His basic point is to make your change water match your tank water as close as possible so that you avoid hitting the tank inhabitants with PH and osmotic shock. Osmotic shock is usually the real killer. It actually causes cells in tissue to rupture, in fish with clear’ish or lighter colors you can actually see blood in tissue, especially at places like where tail tissue meets rays of tail fins. Those cells rupture and when that happens blood flow to tail decrease substantially or even completely stops, even some cells in tail have ruptured as well. Tissue in tail starts falling away and going necrotic, secondary infections soon set in.

Usually it goes like this, they hit betta with bad water change, betta gets sick and then they start with even more massive water changes of the improperly prepped water that caused the problem in the 1st place, basically shocking fish over and over again. Betta would be way better off if you just left him alone to heal.

Your little bumblebee goby will laugh at parameter swings that will decimate your betta, through eons of evolution they’ve developed a system of built in osmotic regulation because their found from blackwater’ish environments all way down to more estuarine, almost brackish environments. Betta not so much, it’s a softwater fish.

Betta are curious fish, mine will swim right up to and into the water I’m pouring in tank, they have no idea what’s going to happen if that waters hardness isn’t normalized to existing tank conditions. Best thing you can do is prep and normalize your water and if there is any difference in TDS between the two waters refill the tank slowly. You can use your tap as it is but you need to refill it back into tank slowly, for your 40% water change that would be at least 20 minutes to put that water back into tank.

You can even induce osmotic rupture in plants cells.

But you need to check TDS not just GH because all minerals in water effect osmotic pressure not just Ca, Mg that your GH test reads. TDS pens are affordable and well worth having around. You’ll probably be surprised when you see difference in TDS between your tank and tap water.

Let your PH be what it wants to be after addition of leaves. The PH down dropping PH then having it rebound a short time later is way worse for your betta than just having a slightly high PH. You need to stop the PH rollercoaster and just concentrate on keeping it stable. Then deal with the osmotic side of it by either doing water changes slowly or normalize the difference using some chemical.
DaveKS is offline  
post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Darwin, Australia
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuister View Post
Hi @Jok178,

Is that booster already mixed? If so, I think using it will run you into some more problems:
1) The CaCO3 will be a giant dust storm at your pH
yeah it is premixed, and yes it used to make quite the mess. I'll try your ingredients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuister View Post
Hi @Jok178,
What are you thinking right now - do you want a lower pH or do you want to find the natural pH of the tank?
That's hard, I would love a love PH because my plants are going nuts now. It was that bad all my Anuibis Nana melted and died. on the other hand I also need to find an equilibrium as I went Wasltad to get away from constant fiddling and dosing.

I might try for equilibrium with twice weekly small matched water changes.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKS View Post
Tissue in tail starts falling away and going necrotic, secondary infections soon set in.
That sounds exactly like I am seeing now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKS View Post
Betta would be way better off if you just left him alone to heal.
You think it would be safe to remove him from little hospital tank put him back in the walstad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKS View Post
Let your PH be what it wants to be after addition of leaves. The PH down dropping PH then having it rebound a short time later is way worse for your betta than just having a slightly high PH. You need to stop the PH rollercoaster and just concentrate on keeping it stable. Then deal with the osmotic side of it by either doing water changes slowly or normalize the difference using some chemical.
I'll get a high range PH kit and put heaps of leaves to offset the stones. Hopefully I can get it stable low enough to keep my plants going as they are finally growing nice.

Thanks everyone for your help, it I'll combine everything said here to get this tank running right. Failing that I'll just have to re-scape it with less troublesome materials. I will keep posting here with the progress too
Jok178 is offline  
post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-29-2020, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Darwin, Australia
Posts: 108
So he now can't right his body the correct way, can't eat, and there is a white fuzzy stuff growing off his body.

It is like this medicine does nothing
Jok178 is offline  
post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-29-2020, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Darwin, Australia
Posts: 108
He dead
Jok178 is offline  
post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-29-2020, 12:27 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 84
Hi @Jok178,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
It is like this medicine does nothing
I don't know the medicine you used, but the entire process is just stressful - and also the potency of the meds could be a factor here .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
He dead
I'm sorry about that. Focus on keeping the other tank healthy, so you can mitigate this in the future - everyone has done something like this ... and we all feel bad about it - keep trekking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I'll try your ingredients.
Let me know how they go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
It was that bad all my Anuibis Nana melted and died. on the other hand I also need to find an equilibrium as I went Wasltad to get away from constant fiddling and dosing.
The plant may have melted from several factors not only the pH (although those factors may have affected the pH).

The Walstad way is all about equilibrium; she uses dolomitic lime in the substrate but she doesn't have loads of reactive rocks in her tank. I am looking at the front cover and front matter of her book right now and all I see are clay pots and plants .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I might try for equilibrium with twice weekly small matched water changes.
This would be a hybridized approach and would basically be in search of "equilibrium with water changes" -- which means if you slack on the water changes (we are all human unless you automate it), then the next water change would have the same TDS shock on the fish - OR you have to play catch up again as you do three that week that are smaller (or some values here that you discern) to drop your pH back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
I'll get a high range PH kit and put heaps of leaves to offset the stones. Hopefully I can get it stable low enough to keep my plants going as they are finally growing nice.
The leaves will deteriorate faster than the rock, so if you slip up on adding more leaves, then you may run into an issue. In small tanks, adding some chunks of almond leaf can plummet the pH quick (or eat your buffer in this case). Your substrate has peat in it, so it is already counteracting the rock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jok178 View Post
Thanks everyone for your help, it I'll combine everything said here to get this tank running right. Failing that I'll just have to re-scape it with less troublesome materials. I will keep posting here with the progress too
No problem. Inert stuff is great, but the stone you have is beautiful.

Honestly, I would get the high pH test kit and test your pH throughout the week; continue this until it plateaus - that number is your equilibrium. It may not be as high as you think. By the sounds of it, the rest of your livestock is fine and your plants (aside from the nana) are ok (if they are all melting and dieing, then we need to clean vigorously at this time) - advise me here.

If you want to find the natural equilibrium of the tank, then:
1) cease playing with all chemistry -
changing water (this is a point of contention because if the overall health is declining then we have a sophie's choice - to change or not to change) OR make sure it is as close to identical as the water at the current moment in time - this will be ok.
no more leaves
2) test pH daily/twice a day at the same time and log it.

When it plateaus, we can decide what to do next - are we happy with the pH, or do we want to fiddle more.



Cheers,
Josh
Tuister is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome