Cycling a planted tank for the first time in years - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Cycling a planted tank for the first time in years

Good day guys, I am somewhat strangely in need of some advice.
I’ve kept tropical fish since the age of 14 and I am now 28. However only twice in my life have I had to cycle aquariums.

The first time I didn’t have the internet so relied on LFS And a mountain of literature, however I was recommended to go fish in cycling, the store tested my water for me.

The second time I moved from Europe to Canada and cycled all over again using the fish less method. This was about 9 years ago.

I have always had a tank set up to steal BB from to cycle new aquariums and the hobby has changed a lot since I started.

I have been doing my research and all I really need here is a little guidance. I am going to outline my plan here and hopefully some of you knowledgeable guys can let me know if I’m heading in the right direction.

I will be cycling a 80g aquarium. It is one of those display tanks that is 4ft long and 2ft tall. The tank will be planted.
For filtration I have a 40g sump.

1. I will fill the tank, add wood, rocks etc and substrate.
2. Add a thawed prawn ( slow release of ammonia
3. Try to source a scoop of gravel or filter cleaned out gunk to speed things along
4. Check parameters every day, look for ammonia spike, then nitrite production and finally nitrate production.

Here are the questions that I have regarding my plan.

1. How often must I add the prawn? Only one time? I’m expecting this to take about a month or so before I could add fish
Also would adding bacteria in a bottle help at all?

2. When do I put plants in, if the plants will eat up nitrates, will that inhibit me seeing nitrates on my test? Should I plant after it’s cycled?

3. When should you do water changes? I know you have to water change with fish in cycling to reduce ammonia but in a fish less cycle is it necessary?

Sorry for these basic questions, I would like to cycle humanely this time.
Fish keeping for me is a personal hobby, I don’t have any friends with aquariums to help me cycle.

Thanks,
Rafini
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 10:19 PM
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1. How often must I add the prawn? Only one time?

I'm in the process of cycling a new tank myself, but I'm using straight ammonium chloride (and water from my established tank, which has a lot of residual nutrients in it.) My plan is to keep adding ammonium chloride as it's depleted to build up the filter capacity. Will then use ammonium chloride to maintain a live filter, as this is supposed to be a quarantine tank with fish in it only occasionally.



If you want to try something similar, try adding another prawn whenever the ammonia drops below 2 ppm or so. When adding prawns no longer bumps up the ammonium ... you've cycled, or at least the first step. (Might still be wise to check nitrite.)



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Iím expecting this to take about a month or so before I could add fish

Seed the tank well, and it should not take that long.



Quote:

Also would adding bacteria in a bottle help at all?

If you had an established tank to seed from, that would be much better. Bacteria from a bottle is a less satisfactory substitute. If you plant at the start, the plants themselves will help seed the tank (unless they're all from tissue culture.)



Some aquarists seed with some pond water or even a pinch of soil or compost. If the tank is cycling for a month, any of the more common parasites should all be starved out.



Quote:

2. When do I put plants in, if the plants will eat up nitrates, will that inhibit me seeing nitrates on my test? Should I plant after itís cycled?

Most folks seem to plant right at the start, because it's easier to work in the empty tank. It's what I plan to do with my next tank (a 10-gallon shrimp tank, for my upcoming birthday. I turn old again. ) If the plants are just getting going, they are unlikely to consume all the nitrate, though they will compete for ammonium; you will need to be sure there is plenty. 3-4 ppm during a fishless cycle is supposed to be optimum.



Quote:

3. When should you do water changes? I know you have to water change with fish in cycling to reduce ammonia but in a fish less cycle is it necessary?

Not until nitrate builds up. You want a reasonable amount of ammonium in the tank. But if you are building up the filter with additional doses of ammonium, you can build up too much nitrate. My plan is to start water changes when the nitrate level hits 20 ppm or so, so it won't screw with the fish when I use the tank for quarantine.



Quote:

Sorry for these basic questions, I would like to cycle humanely this time.
Fish keeping for me is a personal hobby, I donít have any friends with aquariums to help me cycle.

Thanks,
Rafini

My pleasure. Fishless cycling does have the advantage of being humane.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 10:54 PM
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I does pure ammonia as well (10% technically) for my fishless cycle. Takes about a month, keep it at 3-4ppm, plant, and change the water if you'd like. I didn't bother with my most recent tank. Cycled straight through without any issues. I wouldn't add anything else aside from an ammonia source. Never seemed to impact it in a positive, noticeable, manner.


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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 12:29 AM
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I tried cycling a tank with a prawn many years ago and it stunk to high heaven...NEVER EVER AGAIN!! Get some Dr Tim's One and Only and some pure ammonia. OR, add some fast growing plants, some liquid ferts, One and Only, and add a fish or two, feeding lightly. The plants will use most of the ammonia and it's a large tank and sump so bacteria population will develop w/o harming the fish.

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 12:44 AM
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.Put water in (no ammonia or pawns needed)
.Put plants in (bacteria and some ammonia will come from plants) and cycle will
technically start.
.Do weekly water changes (50%)
.Insure plants are doing well and growing,
.In a total of 3 to 4 weeks.
.Test for ammonia, if good put a few fish in
.Wait a week
.Test for ammonia, if good put a few fish in.
.And so on and so on.
.You just did a silent cycle.

This is the only way I've cycled my tanks in the last 10 years. Always better IMO to get the plants growing and to move them around (to adjust your scape) and for the tank to mature with biofilm and other organisms before you put fish/critters in.


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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 02:11 AM Thread Starter
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The reason why I was recommended a prawn was because as it breaks down it continually releases ammonia.

I guess shrimp catfish pellets could be used instead? 2 pellets a day or something like that?

As you can see from the responses, it’s very confusing now. There are so many methods that I don’t want to make it take any longer with a mistake.

So I should buy plants that are actually in a tank with fish etc instead of the ones that come in a bag or whatever from tropica.
The only plants I proved able to keep were crypts and swords, if like to have some again, I’d also like Vallisneria but my lights are not super high output so it might not do well.
Do the plants eat a lot of ammonia?

I am trying to hopefully convince a store to give me some of their gravel / mulm / media. I don’t have any aquarist friends.

If there is anyone here in Calgary that wouldn’t mind helping I’d appreciate that, or it will be a local store lol.

Still not sure what plants I will add.

I’m going to add a lot of wood, the first inhabitant will be red eye tetra. It will be lightly planted. Then I’ll go from there.
I was thinking a type of peaceful cichlid. The height would be good for angels, but I always have bad luck with them in my hard water.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 02:24 AM
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Generally, when there's lots of approaches to something, it's because it's not really hard and can be done many ways successfully. All there is to cycling, really, is making sure there is ammonium in the tank and seeding it with some bacteria, and then being patient. And since denitrifying bacteria are found everywhere in nature, you could almost just pour water in the tank, add ammonium, and it would eventually cycle.

If you can get your pet store to let you have a bag of water from one of their tanks, that's enough to seed things. Buy a plant from them in a bag of water and add the water along with the tank and you're seeded.

You can use fish food as an ammonium source, sure.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-08-2020, 02:54 AM
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I'm sure you can get some filter media from your LFS or even a neighbor. That will help seed tremendously. If you are going with a bunch of wood in the tank try to by wood from the LFS that's already in tanks not dry. My LFS does that. I would recommend adding snails and scuds to the tank. They are both very hardy and the snails are great little poop producers which can be your source of ammonia. Plant as much as you can and your tank will cycle remarkably quickly. Read about Walstad Silent Cycles. It doesn't have to be hard or take a long time.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-09-2020, 02:46 AM
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It is really easy to prepare a tank that is safe for fish to live in and can be done many ways (this is where a lot of confusion is created around how to cycle an aquarium). However, it does not mean the tank is cycled or that the cycle is being completed with the end product being nitrogen gas that is gassed out of the aquarium. Preparing a tank for fish can be done many ways but to establish a bacteria population that can complete the cycle you will need a ammonium NH4 source, the correct bacteria, a medium for the bacteria to inhabit, the correct pH (8.0 is ideal), and time. The bacteria that oxidize NH4 (ammonium) to NO3 (nitrate) are common and all over any surface in the aquarium but the bacteria that convert NO3 to N2 (nitrogen gas) are only able to survive in anoxic areas of the substrate (usually deep in a fine substrate) or deep in large sized bio-media. Sometimes people say do a water change when NO3 builds up further adding confusion to what the nitrogen cycle is and does. They failed to establish a population of NO3 reducing bacteria most likely because they have no anoxic areas in their aquarium. If the correct substate and bio media are present and you have what I discussed earlier in place it will not be hard to do. It just takes a little understanding of what a cycle is.

Keep in mind you can continue adding an ammonium source as long as you want. What I would do is supply a NH4 source for maybe a month then stop and start testing NH4 to see how fast it is going down. If it goes down fast within 24 hours you have a healthy population of these specific bacteria. If you don't want to do constant water changes then you will want to work on providing an environment for nitrate reducing bacteria before you start to cycle the aquarium. When you have very low amount of NH4 and NO3. Then add a few fish to continue supplying NH4 so the bacteria don't start to die off and then add plants.

Adding plants before a cycle only gives bacteria competition for NH3 and NO3 that the bacteria need to develop and grow. It can help introduce bacteria to your aquarium but IMO that is a not enough reason to not properly cycle my aquarium.

I buy the correct bacteria so I know they are present. It speeds things up when trying to establish a population. It comes in a liquid and it is circulated in the tank spreading the bacteria to every inch of the aquarium and through the filter.

Last edited by Andy H; 01-09-2020 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Forgot to add something important
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-09-2020, 04:09 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys! That was a ton of useful info!

I have cycled marine aquaria before and I always found it strange that they put inverts in there weeks before fish. It works likely because of the fact that they produce a small stream of steady ammonia.

So taking that approach and adding some snails during the cycling will help the process and give something to look at?

So is a scoop of deep substrate equivalent to filter media in terms of bacteria species? It’s all brown sludge when it’s symphonies lol.

I have a bunch of wood from 3 previous tanks sitting in buckets that I’ll be using. It’s been out of the water and dry for months.
I’m torn between getting a sand substrate or reusing my old fluval planted substrate that is also sitting in a bucket.
It’s enough to make it about 3-4” thick, the volcanic small brown pellet kind.

So here is what I’m thinking,

Get a few plants, bagged in water ( maybe even the ones attached to a piece of driftwood)
A scoop of gravel which I’ll add directly to the anaerobic lower layer of my substrate and my filter media.

And after a few days or so Some snails, any particular species?

And as soon as I see Nitrate being produced, then I know I have at least the correct bacteria established and I could get a small group of red eye tetras.

I’m happy to take it slow stocking the aquarium.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-09-2020, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafini View Post
Thanks guys! That was a ton of useful info!

I have cycled marine aquaria before and I always found it strange that they put inverts in there weeks before fish. It works likely because of the fact that they produce a small stream of steady ammonia.

So taking that approach and adding some snails during the cycling will help the process and give something to look at?

So is a scoop of deep substrate equivalent to filter media in terms of bacteria species? Itís all brown sludge when itís symphonies lol.

I have a bunch of wood from 3 previous tanks sitting in buckets that Iíll be using. Itís been out of the water and dry for months.
Iím torn between getting a sand substrate or reusing my old fluval planted substrate that is also sitting in a bucket.
Itís enough to make it about 3-4Ē thick, the volcanic small brown pellet kind.

So here is what Iím thinking,

Get a few plants, bagged in water ( maybe even the ones attached to a piece of driftwood)
A scoop of gravel which Iíll add directly to the anaerobic lower layer of my substrate and my filter media.

And after a few days or so Some snails, any particular species?

And as soon as I see Nitrate being produced, then I know I have at least the correct bacteria established and I could get a small group of red eye tetras.

Iím happy to take it slow stocking the aquarium.

I don't know how snails contribute to cycling an aquarium but I did the same thing in a saltwater tank I had back in the day. I also put a shrimp in there and let it decompose to supply ammonia. I thought the snail were to keep algae at bay while ammonia was high.

A scoop of deep substrate is not equivalent to filter media. Im not sure how you meant this but Ill do my best. If you mean will they have the same bacteria living in them then the answer is no.
If you are trying to seed your aquarium from these sources, you will not be able to remove anoxic denitrifying bacteria from one tank and seed another tank. Pulling the substrate out of an aquarium with these bacteria will expose them to O2 in the water and air. They will die.
If you are asking if deep substrate and bio-media can be populated by by the same bacteria the answer is yes and no. Yes if the substrate is deep (at least 3") and fine like sand and the bio-media is about 1/2" in diameter. No if this is not the case.

About using sand vs the fluval substrate. Sand is not great for holding nutrients and minerals plants need to grow. Although, a deep sand bed has a lot of surface area and anoxic regions needed for bacteria that convert nitrate and nitrite to nitrogen gas to live. The fluval substrate from the product description is not much better. It has some mineral content but that means nothing because it will not be available to plants, I suspect. It says it will keep your pH in a range plants prefer but the fish you wish to have may not, something to consider.

If you want to buy a plant substrate get something made out of clay. Clay holds some nutrients well and makes them available through cation exchange. Any substrate you can buy will need you to use fertilizers buying the right one will make things easier.

I would skip the snails they will starve most likely.

If you are seeing nitrates in the water you have half of the full nitrogen cycle going on. You will need anoxic areas and the correct bacteria in the aquarium to complete the nitrogen cycle. But if you can manage to get a few plants growing that will help you remove nitrate from the water.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-10-2020, 04:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rafini View Post
Thanks guys! That was a ton of useful info!

I have cycled marine aquaria before and I always found it strange that they put inverts in there weeks before fish. It works likely because of the fact that they produce a small stream of steady ammonia.

So taking that approach and adding some snails during the cycling will help the process and give something to look at?

So is a scoop of deep substrate equivalent to filter media in terms of bacteria species? It’s all brown sludge when it’s symphonies lol.

I have a bunch of wood from 3 previous tanks sitting in buckets that I’ll be using. It’s been out of the water and dry for months.
I’m torn between getting a sand substrate or reusing my old fluval planted substrate that is also sitting in a bucket.
It’s enough to make it about 3-4” thick, the volcanic small brown pellet kind.

So here is what I’m thinking,

Get a few plants, bagged in water ( maybe even the ones attached to a piece of driftwood)
A scoop of gravel which I’ll add directly to the anaerobic lower layer of my substrate and my filter media.

And after a few days or so Some snails, any particular species?

And as soon as I see Nitrate being produced, then I know I have at least the correct bacteria established and I could get a small group of red eye tetras.

I’m happy to take it slow stocking the aquarium.

I don't know how snails contribute to cycling an aquarium but I did the same thing in a saltwater tank I had back in the day. I also put a shrimp in there and let it decompose to supply ammonia. I thought the snail were to keep algae at bay while ammonia was high.

A scoop of deep substrate is not equivalent to filter media. Im not sure how you meant this but Ill do my best. If you mean will they have the same bacteria living in them then the answer is no.
If you are trying to seed your aquarium from these sources, you will not be able to remove anoxic denitrifying bacteria from one tank and seed another tank. Pulling the substrate out of an aquarium with these bacteria will expose them to O2 in the water and air. They will die.
If you are asking if deep substrate and bio-media can be populated by by the same bacteria the answer is yes and no. Yes if the substrate is deep (at least 3") and fine like sand and the bio-media is about 1/2" in diameter. No if this is not the case.

About using sand vs the fluval substrate. Sand is not great for holding nutrients and minerals plants need to grow. Although, a deep sand bed has a lot of surface area and anoxic regions needed for bacteria that convert nitrate and nitrite to nitrogen gas to live. The fluval substrate from the product description is not much better. It has some mineral content but that means nothing because it will not be available to plants, I suspect. It says it will keep your pH in a range plants prefer but the fish you wish to have may not, something to consider.

If you want to buy a plant substrate get something made out of clay. Clay holds some nutrients well and makes them available through cation exchange. Any substrate you can buy will need you to use fertilizers buying the right one will make things easier.

I would skip the snails they will starve most likely.

If you are seeing nitrates in the water you have half of the full nitrogen cycle going on. You will need anoxic areas and the correct bacteria in the aquarium to complete the nitrogen cycle. But if you can manage to get a few plants growing that will help you remove nitrate from the water.
Okay got it, so the filter media /sludge is better than the gravel.

I will probably go with the shrimp pellets vs the actual shrimp as I have a lot of those left over. Not sure how many I would have to add to give the right amount of ammonia, but I’m sure as long as there is ammonia being produced Continually the bacterial cycle can begin.

I’m not too worried about PH I will not be heavily planting the tank, my water here is almost identical to lake Malawi so this soil buffers it nicely.

What I meant regarding nitrates being visible is that signifies that if I were to add livestock in a small amount, their waste could be processed?

Thanks for al your help
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-10-2020, 09:06 AM
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Snails are good 1st inhabitants for tanks. Snail poop is loaded with all kind microorganisms and beneficial enzymes produced in snails intestinal tract.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-10-2020, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H View Post
I don't know how snails contribute to cycling an aquarium but I did the same thing in a saltwater tank I had back in the day. I also put a shrimp in there and let it decompose to supply ammonia. I thought the snail were to keep algae at bay while ammonia was high.

A scoop of deep substrate is not equivalent to filter media. Im not sure how you meant this but Ill do my best. If you mean will they have the same bacteria living in them then the answer is no.
If you are trying to seed your aquarium from these sources, you will not be able to remove anoxic denitrifying bacteria from one tank and seed another tank. Pulling the substrate out of an aquarium with these bacteria will expose them to O2 in the water and air. They will die.
If you are asking if deep substrate and bio-media can be populated by by the same bacteria the answer is yes and no. Yes if the substrate is deep (at least 3") and fine like sand and the bio-media is about 1/2" in diameter. No if this is not the case.

About using sand vs the fluval substrate. Sand is not great for holding nutrients and minerals plants need to grow. Although, a deep sand bed has a lot of surface area and anoxic regions needed for bacteria that convert nitrate and nitrite to nitrogen gas to live. The fluval substrate from the product description is not much better. It has some mineral content but that means nothing because it will not be available to plants, I suspect. It says it will keep your pH in a range plants prefer but the fish you wish to have may not, something to consider.

If you want to buy a plant substrate get something made out of clay. Clay holds some nutrients well and makes them available through cation exchange. Any substrate you can buy will need you to use fertilizers buying the right one will make things easier.

I would skip the snails they will starve most likely.

If you are seeing nitrates in the water you have half of the full nitrogen cycle going on. You will need anoxic areas and the correct bacteria in the aquarium to complete the nitrogen cycle. But if you can manage to get a few plants growing that will help you remove nitrate from the water.
I second @DaveKS's recommendation for snails and their poop. If the ammonia gets too high, the snails, like any livestock, will die. So you'll want to monitor it to make sure it doesn't get too high, and do some water changes if it does. Hardy snails like MTS, bladder & pond snails, etc can tolerate some low levels better than fish, though. And they will help eat any algae. They're not likely to starve in the few weeks it takes to cycle a tank. If that's a concern, you can always feed them. Some people cycle their tanks by just dumping in some fish food and letting it rot. Supposedly works, but like dead prawns is a smelly (and IMHO) unnecessary option.

Cycled filter media, sludge from a squeezed out filter sponge, mulm, surface substrate from an established tank, will all have beneficial bacteria that can help with cycling a tank. Your LFS might be able to help you with some of those. And there are lots of bacteria starters available that may or may not work--depending on brand, how old they are, and how they've been stored.

You were asking in an earlier post about plants: the more the better. And yes, those from an established tank are going to bring along lots of bacterial goodies with them. Just make sure you start with a low photoperiod of 4-5 hrs/day. Too much is guaranteed to create a huge algae bloom. You were asking about plants: the more the better. In addition to the ones you want long term, lots of fastgrowing stem plants, and floaters like hornwort, RRF, frogbit, water sprite, etc will shade the tank to help prevent algae, and are very efficient at soaking up nutrients to prevent algae. You can always take them out once thing get established.

Good luck, and enjoy the ride!
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-10-2020, 07:11 PM
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Don't need 30 days, to establish a healthy bacteria culture.

I add water in the new tank, dechlorinate the water, turn on the new filter, then wash the dirty filter fabric from the old established tank, in the new tank.
takes 6 hours to 2 days, depends on how cloudy the water after the wash, the new tank water will clear again.

done.


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